Do you avoid the bathroom if there is a transwoman?

[PeachyDaisy]

I’m going to an industry event next week and I know there will be a transwoman attending. Should I use the disabled bathroom to avoid an awkward encounter or just continue to use the women’s and hope not to run into them?

I'm all right jack - sod the rape/SA victuims or women who are under reglious restictions or just ones who do feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

Fact is if these facilties get used less becuase fewer of population ever use less pressure to provide at all then easier to have them disappear or not maintained then disappear.

Yes, I know at least two transwomen personally who use the gents. Don't know why it's so hard.

I'm so confused by this response. You don't believe trans identifying men should be in women's spaces, but you're laughing at a woman who is concerned that a man is going to be in a woman's space?

OP, I'm sorry you're in this situation in a work context, which limits your options. I would feel the same as you and all I could think of doing is avoiding the situation, and making sure you knew he wasn't in the toilets when you go in

My (male) DP isn't someone who assaults people. I know him.

He's never had so much as parking ticket, never mind committing a volent offence. He doesn't get to use the Ladies, and he's not a reason why other men should.

In the situation you describe, my need to wee would trump my views on whether TW in general should be in a women's bathroom and I would just use the bathroom when I needed to go.

At a work event and in a situation where a particular TW is known/ expected I would less concerned compared to unexpectedly encountering a completely unknown man in the ladies loos.

how would you know? It’s not public record unless they have been convicted, and we know how many sexual assaults and rapes get as far as the CPS, never mind court and sentencing.

people thought Jimmy Saville was a nice bloke who loved his mum and did a lot for charity FFS. Offenders don’t advertise, they hide in plain sight.

Nothing personally aimed against you, but I wonder if anyone's thought about how this impacts on people with disabilities? A lot of them need a loo fast when they need it. Others need extra room for walking frames and higher loo seats or the safety of a pull cord for help, which is all too often tied up because kids mess around with it who shouldn't be in there.

Man is scared of men= serious; men are dangerous, he needs separation from the men AND the company of women to protect him.

Woman is scared of men=a big fucking joke, men are not dangerous they just want to pee.

Thank you! People with disabilities campaigned for decades to have the accessible, adapted toilets they need -it's not a question of preference, or choice, or validation, or 'feeling more comfortable', it's a need.

It's infuriating to see accessible toilets being blithely handed over as a sort of low-cost quick fix for demanding able-bodied transpeople who are perfectly capable of using the toilets designated for their sex, but choose not to.

I did the sums for the statistical drop out rate recently. When you take it to account those not reported, those reported but not charged, those charged but not prosecuted, those prosecuted but not convicted, only 0.52% of rapes result in a conviction.

For every rape that results in someone having a searchable criminal record, another 199 are invisible.

I would be uncomfortable with it and would use the disabled toilet (which I'm entitled to use anyway as I have a hidden disability).

Maybe, maybe not. One of the issues with mixed toilets etc is that men are the main perpetrators of sexual offences. This would include filming, as again fetishes and kinks are more a male feature. So, I can see why someone female would avoid spaces where males can easily access to do dodgy stuff.

Men who claim a female identity are no less likely to do this than other men. Indeed, I think some crime statistics show the percentage of sex related offences may be relatively higher in the cohort of men who claim a female identity.

So, given a choice, I’d always plumb for a space that is genuinely female only.

That is aside from the wish for privacy and dignity, even if they aren’t filming etc.

And every woman busy being cool about being willing to use a mixed sex facility - and sneering at women who aren't or can't - need to keep in mind that sadly they are only ever a day away from a life changing experience that will make them dependent on single sex facilities for the rest of their lives. From that day on they will absolutely 'get' what the issues are for other women and why women need access to these things.

If anyone gives a damn about privacy, dignity, diversity, intersectionality, kindness, inclusion, equality of access, basic capacity for empathy and social justice, and I do mean a real damn, not a performative one where they think these things are for men with trans identities only, they have no excuse to be this derisive about women's need for single sex spaces.

The women who are fine with mixed sex provision - yippee for you, go forth and have a lovely time in the mixed sex. Look out for the chaps with the swords and machetes taking selfies, who are going to wank with the cubicle door open and shout abuse at you while filming themselves, who are panting outside your cubicle to get your used tampon and stick it up their bottom, the ones hovering hoping to offer little girls tampons, and all the rest of it. But there'll always be the single sex one to retreat to if you feel you need it.

Yes, OP, I'm one of the women who cannot use a mixed sex space. I do avoid. And I need to 'live my life' and 'just want to pee' too. The answer is facilities accessible to all and to teach activists to cope with the idea of other people having needs and rights too, and there being some things that are for other people and not for them. Not to just sneer those women out of public life to benefit men. Which is obviously and grimly sexist and misogynist.

Only in this topsy-turvy upside-down clown world where men can be women on their own say so and use that to commit voyeurism and exhibitionism (if not worse) without censure, could you hear the words "thankfully I'm disabled" said without any irony.

Given the number of trans people who turn up at protests with canes, the impact of opposite hormones (especially testosterone on women), the impact of genital surgery (although uncommon) and mental health difficulties, I imagine a fair proportion of individuals who identify as trans would legitimately have claim to use an accessible toilet.

I thought disabled toilets were for people with a physical disability or limitation. Obvious or hidden. I didn’t know it was also for people with mental disabilities.

I didn't say I did. OP asked if I/you/ the-good-people-of-mumsnet would avoid the toilet if you knew a transperson would potentially be using it. I answered. At no point did I say I was answering for humankind or make reference to what I think others should do.

How do YOU know he isn't?
How can you possibly know his motivation for wanting to use women only spaces?
Maybe he wants to listen to women pee that's a definite thing with these guys. Perhaps he enjoys wanking in there and leaving his deposits on the loo roll or seat. Another favourite pastime that they are quite open about.

Or perhaps he just likes hanging about in there knowing that women are intimidated and unable to stop him
Who are you to tell women not to be bothered by men in their loos who should not fucking be there?
You are the reason so many women find it hard to speak up for their own rights. Knowing they will be dismissed as "overreacting" Just stop it!

Why shouldn’t they if a mental disability prevents them using other toilets? Mental health disabilities can be seriously debilitating. I know people who have been housebound by them for months and if an accessible toilet makes the difference in their ability to go out then of course they should use them.

Actually you can't know this for certain. Unless you're privy to the inside of their heads. I've known people be shocked by what apparently nice normal men or transwomen are like on the Internet where their barriers can come down and they can show who they REALLY are. You only know what they let you know. Same as everyone

Him just being there IS harassment. That's why they do it. They know we don't like it.

Honestly, if I walked into a women's toilet and a trans woman was there then yes I would walk back out again.

I wouldn't avoid using the loo full stop though just in case he happened to walk in.

In the Uk, if a male colleague persisted on using a female toilet despite raising the matter with your employer then you could take your employer to court for sexual harassment. The male colleague should be taken through the internal discipline process by their employer, ultimately leading to dismissal if they continue.

I can think of several non physical disabilities where this would apply. My mother has severe memory loss dementia. Obviously I can go and queue with her in the ladies but my brother can't, especially not with this thread in mind, and she'd forget where the hell she was if queuing on her own. So disabled loos if being accompanied by a male.

Good point. The corollary is true too - there are physical disabilities which do not require the adaptations in an accessible toilet, e.g. being deaf.

There are some situations where a disabled person on their own might be safer in the standard toilets, if they don't actually need the accessible one, because there are other people around ,and gaps to see if they have a problem and need assistance.

It's all down to trusting the individual to respect the space and only use it if is necessary. Certainly not using them as a way of placating difficult able-bodied transpeople who are perfectly capable of using the standard toilet designated for their sex, but choose not to.

Your post also illustrates why accessible toilets are mixed sex: so opposite-sex carers can accompany disabled users where necessary.

to you, your brother, and your mother.