Watch in real time as Trans Reddit turns on one of it's own for suggesting that maybe they are biological men and arguing they are not makes them look unstable.

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1t0t604/trans_girl_says_were_all_biological_males/

So, I don't believe that someone can actually change sex. But I know I'm not always right about everything. My son has a trans friend and has talked to me about gender being different from sex. I don't think we can really understand the situation if we haven't been through it ourselves.

That said I disagree with the subject being ruled unquestionable in schools and on social media- on reddit for example you are not allowed to say you don't agree that trans- women are the same as cis- women.

We should of course be having these discussions but we should also be trying to understand. I understand the feminist movement but there's no need to be ridiculing trans people.

@ThatFairy to go back to the original reddit thread being discussed, a lot of people on there are making themselves look ridiculous.
The difficulty is that in the few places where dissent is allowed, the pushback is quite robust and scientifically accurate, with a good dose of humour. Probably why debate was discouraged for so long.

Have you seen some of what TRAs say to women on X? A little gentle piss taking is nothing to the treats to women that are allowed to stand on there.

Best wishes for your dental work.

Gender IS different from sex, there's nothing else to understand. Sex is binary, immutable and biological reality. Gender is nothing but a social construct, a set of stereotypes and/or nebulous 'feelings'.

Also, there is no such thing as 'cis'. Women are adult human females and transwomen are trans-identifying adult human men.

How is this the problem of women?

@SidewaysOtter I admit I'm having trouble understanding that. Women are generally softer with their children, dad is the one they do as they're told with. We want to talk arguments out and they want to walk out of it. We get more emotional. My son can take apart computers and rebuild them, whereas I just recently learned how to work a tv. Because men tend to be more technical minded. Women like to have longer hair and nails generally. Assume these things are true, and it's not due to sex but gender- then what exactly is gender ?

The reason I said cis in contrast to trans is because I studied chemistry for a few years and that's the way we talk about if you will contrasted molecules

I don't think we can really understand the situation if we haven't been through it ourselves.

In that case, how can any male person claim womanhood?

Anime and fantasy ideas about women seeped in misogyny go hand in hand with transactivism.

Women are cartoon characters. Any ideas about the real world - never mind biological sex and genitals go down like a lead balloon with a certain percentage.

There is a subculture around avoidance of the real world full stop. There is a certain section of the community - many of whom are autistic and can be understood from this to an extent - where this is very much the ethos. The idea it's merely about sex / gender within this subculture I think can be something of a mistake.

Sex is your biological reality - the bottom line (forgive the pun) is the production of gametes. Females - biologically designed to produce large gametes (eggs) and have babies. Males - biologically designed to produce small gametes (sperm). That's it. It's driven by chromosomes and, while there are a vanishingly small number of people with chromosomal disorders, they are still all biologically male or female even if they have some physical attributes of the other sex.

There are generalised differences between the behaviour of sexes (some of which are ingrained behaviours due to socialisation) but that does not mean that a biological male who is 'soft with children' is somehow female. Quite a few of the things you've quoted like "talking out an argument" or your inability to work a TV are absolutely nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with socialisation, individual personality or education.

The idea that women are soft, talkative and unable to work a remote, while men are emotionally unavailable, technical or whatever are a set of stereotypes that make up ideas of 'gender'.

As for 'cis' and 'trans' - regardless of chemical definitions, biological sex is binary and no-one is 'cis' because no-one can BE trans. No-one actually changes sex even if they 'identify' as having done so.

I do wonder what all these troubled young men did before the invention of video gaming.

That's a valid point although I can imagine the boy experiences the women around them and feels like one of them

But they are only 'feeling' what they imagine women to feel like, which is entirely experienced through the male lens. They cannot EVER know what it is like to BE a woman because that's only available to those who ARE women.

I've seen transwomen say they're women because they feel 'soft, 'kind' and 'caring' which is absolute nonsense. Are women who are not those things men, then? Men can be soft/kind/caring and women can be hard/cruel/uncaring. And THAT'S what gender is: a set of rigid stereotypes as to how each sex 'should' behave.

But almost every human ever has ‘experienced the women around them’. This is a normal human experience except in the dire circumstances when children are removed at birth from their mother and never see another human female ever again. If indeed there are any such circumstances. A boy can’t ’feel like a woman’ from being around women. A boy can feel like a boy who spends time around women. Like every other human being on the planet.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I had a pupil who had some kind of problem which meant that some of his teeth grew in parallel. He had to have several teeth pulled and then implants fitted in the gaps.

I don't know whether this is usual, but Fife NHS paid for his implants.

It seems we need a reminder on this thread :

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

It is irrelevant whether that male person has observed how women and girls behave and believes that he 'feels like one of them' - he ISN'T ONE OF THEM! In any way! He thinks he 'feels' how he conceptualises how they feel and experience life. But it is impossible.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, (regardless of if that body produces those gametes) even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

That's true - when I was a little girl I hated the thought of growing up to be a woman, because I felt much more attracted to 'boy's things, and traditional male occupations.
If the trans movement had been around when I was little, chances are that I'd have been 'socially transitioned' at school, I'd have had access to puberty blockers, hormone treatment, 'top surgery', phalloplasty, and the scientifically incorrect notion that I could change sex.

Fortunately, I escaped all that, was tolerated as a tomboy, given 'boys' toys by my loving parents, grew up to be a gender-non-conforming female adult human being - who worked in a very techie job, the kind I never thought possible when I was a little girl. I could take a computer apart and put it together again, despite my XX chromosomes😄

So there's nothing to stop 'the boy who experiences the women around them and feels like one of them' resisting the gender stereotypes like I did, and growing up to be his own kind of man.

It would be unforgiveable for anybody to mislead that little boy into thinking that he can actual be a woman, and despicable for anyone to encourage him to do damage to his healthy male body with hormones or surgery in pursuit of an impossibility: changing sex.

Children who are gender-confused deserve love, support, and the absolute truth i.e. that you will always stay whatever sex you were born into.

I understand the feminist movement but there's no need to be ridiculing trans people.

The problem is that they ridicule themselves all the time with most of what they say and do.

Im sorry that you were raised to think you weren't clever enough to work a TV, that didn't happen in my house. I'm sorry that your DC don't listen to you. That isn't my experience of being a mum. I'm sorry that you fell for the stereotypes that so many of us are trying to shut down.

In my house I do most of the DIY. I can use the computer to do everything I need. My male children can do exactly the same things as me. They even know how to use the washing machine (MN needs an eyeroll emoji)

I am a woman. I love most sports. My husband is a man, he is not interested in any sports.
We both have 'techy' jobs. We both wear jeans and t-shirts, hoodies etc much of the time. I have short nails and short hair, for many years DH had longer hair than me.
We both have some stereotypically 'male' traits and some stereotypically female traits, but he remains male and I remain female, even when I'm drinking a pint and swearing at the football.

Ohh and I'm the disciplinary parent while DH is absolutely the 'soft touch' despite being ex forces and well over 6'.

Just as my mum's dog remains a dog even though he is smaller than the cat and typical dogs are bigger than cats.

"The reason I said cis in contrast to trans is because I studied chemistry for a few years and that's the way we talk about if you will contrasted molecules"

Humans are made of molecules, for sure. They are NOT molecules however, and the term 'cis' has been falsely repurposed and is essentially meaningless for the purpose those using it want it to mean.

The other significant issue with ‘cis’ is that its very usage forcibly categorises someone into having a philosophical belief that they may or may not have. It is very problematic for those who do not have a ‘gender identity’.

In fact, to extrapolate it out : if ‘cis’ excludes those who do not ‘identify as having a gender aligned with the sex they were born’ then the trans gender community would be fucking huge. Because it would include everyone who doesn’t believe in gender identities at all. Not through deliberately self-categorisation as ‘agender’ but simply through rejection of anything to do with that philosophical belief that is the foundation for gender identity and the theories that shape those identities.

Because, the only commonality with all those claiming a transgender identity is philosophical belief. Not a medical 'problem' according to transgender people and academics and medical professionals who are transgender and shaping public awareness. No scientific and robustly established material facts.

So only philosophical belief.

And I would be pleased to know just what other philosophical belief should be given the power to shape a whole populations language to the extent that we are seeing these language changes being demanded?

If someone who was religious called me a non-believer, I cannot dispute that. Because it reflects my reality. I don’t believe in their religion so in their religion centred language that is what I am. It could be considered neutral in that respect. It doesn’t change my belief.

However, calling me ‘cis’ is not neutral. It falsely categorises my beliefs and is not a neutral act at all.

Calling me ‘cis’ coercively forces me to believe in gender identity and the theories that are foundational to them.

The posts using 'cis' are a good reminder that the term 'cis' is meaningless because the term includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes that has any degree of sensitivity to any of the testosterone that body produces.

Using this word, cis, then means there is no word left for female people.
Because even male people are now saying they are also ‘female’ . When ^^ female means only a person of the sex category where that person's body has been formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether the body does, has or ever will produce those large gametes. ie that requires the presence of ovaries or ovarian tissue - never testes. This has also recently been the basis of the new IOC policy too,

(from the IOC policy:

This is under the definitions section:
Sex: Either of the two categories, Male or Female, into which humans are divided according to their reproductive biology.
Biological Female (Female): An individual who, regardless of their legal sex or gender identity, experienced female sex development usually based on their XX-chromosomes, ovaries, and estrogenic hormones.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/International-Olympic-Committee/EB/policy/policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-category-english.pdf )

In fact, we now have examples of many male people declaring that they are female people. So even the word for female has become meaningless in that sense.

But 'cis' is a* *word that was repurposed from its original usage and is meaningless for the purpose of discussing female people in its current usage. It has been used in academic papers as well in an attempt at using inclusive language which then renders the papers meaningless because the term is not describing a unique grouping of human bodies, even when it claims to be doing just that.

To see how this works, we have been told that 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.
2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.
3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.
These terms mean:
Cis
= (1) Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **
and
= (3) Any person who has a female body^^
Trans
= (2) Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

Therefore there is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^ formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is meaningless as a unique description for female people and it always was. It is also misogynistic because it leaves female people with no unique word for their needs.

and

Well, would you rather we copied the TRA and issued death threats and rape threats? Why are you scolding women when I bet you won’t go and scold the TRA.
please stop using cis. It’s offensive.
thee is a difference between sex and gender. That’s why males with a trans identity can use the mixed gender facilities assigned to their sex and females with a trans identity can do likewise.
HTH

Oh no. I'm not having that.
That's a ridiculous list of sex based stereotypes that are not even true.

Plenty of mum disciplinarians - I've usually found it's mostly mums actually. Dad's often play the "fun" parent if they bother at all

Women are not technically minded. Fuck off with that. It's utter nonsense that doesn't even deserve a rebuttal.

Long hair and nails forsooth? Again not true of very many women and the plain fact is that a man with long hair and nails, who the softest parent in the world and can't use a smartphone is not being "feminine" he's just being himself. Iikewise a short haired woman who is strict with her kids and works as a mechanic or computer programmer is not being "masculine" she's just being herself.

And these personality traits are certainly not evidence that these people are actually the opposite sex or should be.

There's no such thing as gender as an innate part of a person's psyche. Only as an external set of characteristics imposed by society.

The ONLY thing that makes me a woman is my sex. Nothing else. Not my hobbies, job, dress sense, hairstyle, parenting style... nothing.

So if gender isn't a real thing then why are you upset about men having a female gender identity ?

I wasn't raised not to know how to do technical things I just find it hard to do and I'm not dumb I studied sciences for 3 years

The computer I'm using to type this comment was taken apart and upgraded by yours truly. I'm always fixing tech around the house. And yes, I'm an adult human female.