What is in the water this week?! Glinner now making a mockery of the cause

[RobynMiller]

I know I know I should just get off twitter but this week is just back to back GC news and not in a good way.

If you haven't seen, Glinner posted a video mocking Green Leader Zack Polanski, understandable plenty of material for a comedy writer there, but the video is so unhinged and unfunny.

Some speculating Graham was drunk when he made it but it's been 24 hours and he's left it up so maybe not.

I feel like we are finally gaining real ground in this fight and this makes GCs look like a bunch of lunatics.

I know there is no formal hierarchy but like it or not, for better and worse, we do have public faces and 'spokespeople' for this fight and this is just embarrassing.

I just feel so helpless because there can't be any accountability for this kind of thing but my God.

Thanks for listening to my rant, just been a very frustrating week.

Video here: https://x.com/Glinner/status/2047187374699126873?s=20

Women and men have managed forever to separate themselves into men and women for changing rooms etc. Everyone respectfully followed the social contract with few issues.
A cheek swab necessary for a sex test means swabbing inside the mouth. You do realise it's not a bum cheek so no need to fret about being near genitals? 😀It happens once in an athlete's career. For the sake of your blood pressure I'd suggest you don't look up drug testing protocols in sport. 😂

Outside of the Conception, pregnancy and health related boards, the posts I see talking about children's bodies on this board are generally commenting on the nature of the brutal experimental surgery being sold to young people from dodgy medics? This is important information for parents as often they're not aware of what's being sold to children by dodgy online sources.

It maybe that posting from a different time zone you see different posts? This board does at times attract the attention of an unfortunate group of men who like to issue threats, post porn and other offensive images and launch into tirades against women seeking to protect women's rights and safeguard children - the early hours are often their preferred time to post.

It would of course be a serious case of DARVO to suggest that women should be banned from speaking about the brutal double mastectomies etc being sold to our vulnerable young people. The women I know on here will never be silenced from safeguarding our and other people's children by such bad faith arguments.

Of course it's possible to casually pass a trans person and not notice they are not their bilogical sex if they've done enough to conceal their naturally occurring physical sex identifiers. And yes, TM can often do this more successfully, as can young people.

I didn't say 'you can always tell'. You've changed my factual statement that it's almost impossible to hide all ones naturally occurring physical sex identifiers in a situation where sex is scrutinised; (a fact widely acknowledged by the trans community who often suffer much angst about this) to a statement you feel comfortable arguing with.

Changing my statement gives you an in to create a false equivalence with homophobia, on the very flimsy basis that some homophobes said 'we can always tell' about gay people.
When claiming that social behaviour and personality traits are reliable indicators of sexuality is entirely different from claiming to be able to look at a human being and identify their sex from their physical bodies. (Note, I'm not talking about being able to tell sex from assumed behaviour and appearance, like clothes and mannerisms. I'm GC and don't believe in stereotypes. I'm talking about physical features)

As for park run, while I agree with you it's a shame if something fun is overtaken by competition, this is something of a straw man given this isn't the point at issue. The point is whether TW should be treated as women in activities and spaces specifically designated for women. I believe not, as where an activity is designated for women, somewhere it has been decided that sex matters, and TW are not of the female sex. Argue by all means that there's no need for sex separation in PR or other activities where you claim males have no advantage, but that's an entirely difficult argument from one that advocates for some males to be exceptions.

Acknowledging the physical difference between men and women is not a gift to the far right or to violent men. In the case of the latter it is absolutely crucial to our protection from them. Failing to acknowledge it leads us into very dangerous MRA and VAWG apologist territory. Men denying their physical advantage and claiming reciprocal victim status is a popular defence already. Denying our greater risk of harm facilitates this.

As for the far right, pretending there are no physical differences between the sexes and that some men are women is what's been the gift to them. Because when left wing people say these things, the right use it as examples we are stupid, base our views on feelings not facts, are extremists and lunatics, and create an atmosphere of mistrust of the left in general.

I'm left wing, and my priorities are addressing class and wealth inequality, anti racism and the progression of womens rights. The fact that the people I'd expect to be prioritising those things alongside me have become diverted from the greater good to focus disproportionately on the rights of a subset of males is incredibly frustrating to me.

Oh, Khelif eh? Great case in point.

Khelif the athlete that won’t take a cheek swab because he knows that’s he’s a male DSD athlete. He’s already admitted that he has XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone.

But yes it’s brilliant that Khelif cheating his way to a women’s Olympic medal finally pushed the IOC into finally protecting the female category at the Olympics.

And it’s a simple cheek swab test, which is a lot less intrusive than the anti doping tests that elite athletes undertake.

People in this thread seem to have forgotten about Graham Linehan very quickly, but just by coincidence at this moment, this thread supposedly about him is placed next to "Roisin Murphy in the Times". And in the Times article, there's this:
"Graham Linehan ‘vindicated’
Murphy was joined at the Westminster event by Jewish musicians who told of being cancelled and Mark Tughan, the head of a chain of stand-up venues, known as the Glee Club, who spoke of the comedy sector’s brushes with cancel culture.
Speaking in support of the Father Ted creator Graham Linehan, who has repeatedly spoken of how he was cancelled over his gender-critical views, Tughan said: “The man has been vindicated a thousand times over.
“It’s a source of regret, to me at least, that some of his peers in our industry still can’t seem to find the strength to acknowledge any regret for the way he was treated.”

I hope it gives him some comfort to know that there are people who haven't turned on him, and who are willing to speak out about the way he was treated.

This is the problem with so many people. They hate being politically homeless so end up adopting all these other beliefs they never had before to belong somewhere.

See the post from @Firetreev (this thread), and other posts (passim).

What is it with the gender critical to far right pipeline? It's what made me stop engaging with a lot of the gender critical community. I agree with a lot of what they have to say ragarding sex and gender. However, seeing how many went off the deep end and started spouting racist and far right views too made me walk away. It makes me question who's funding the fight and what are their real motivations. Probably not protecting the rights of women and girls.

READER'S NOTE:

Imane Khelif is a male person with a DSD, a difference in sex development. It has been confirmed by different agencies that he is male with typical male puberty development. It has been leaked but not yet confirmed that the specific DSD that Khelif has is 5ARD.

This is the latest thread about Khelif

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5486573-imane-khelif-confirms-she-has-the-sry-gene?page=1

However, there is plenty of information contained in numerous threads across MN about this boxer. Khelif is male and it is partly due to his inclusion in the last Olympics that the IOC has now updated their policy for access into the female sports categories to fully exclude athletes with male DSDs that undergo male pubertal development, including those with 5ARD.

The 'way terms have treated' Khelif has been to campaign to remove all male people with male pubertal advantages from female sports categories. This has required extensive effort in combatting misinformation spread by posters declaring that Khelif was a female athlete.

Of course, male athletes who have gone through male puberty have physical advantages that are not available to female people. Here is a thread with links to many studies and papers on this topic.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=6&reply=151839994

Incidentally, it is because of these studies that we understand that male people who have either eliminated or suppressed the testosterone yet have gone through any part of male puberty have considerable strength advantages over female people.

This is part of the risk assessment for excluding ALL male people from the female single sex provisions on a safeguarding basis. From prisons, to toilets and to sports as well.

Exactly. The ALLEGATIONS said all those things. Innocent until proved guilty says they are allegations and the police have said no crime committed. If you've got evidence to the contrary, then I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

So what is it people don't want us to talk about with all this what about Trump? What about parkrun? I reckon it's Zack and the his hypno tits. Who is after all a thoroughly worthy target of comedy.

Zack and the his hypno tits

He's at the end of the pier all week

🤣🤣

Sure, but I haven’t mentioned it, so I don’t see the need for the all-caps response to me.

Eight.

Women.

Many of them prepared to go public, despite knowing what happens to women who do that.

He deserves to lose everything imo, and I am so grateful to them. They've likely saved other women.

It's so difficult get abusers convicted, so we have to reduce their power in other ways.

She's a woman, raised in a country where it's illegal to be trans, who fights in shorts in front of a TV audience.

She has a vagina and breasts. By terf logic, that makes her female.

Calling her a man is tactical. It's done so that anything can be said about her. This is a trick as old as time: women have always been made to fear being called masculine, because it removes theoretical protections against male violence.

Throughout history, women (particularly those of colour and lesbians) have suffered this nonsense.

If it was genuinely about her having a DSD, then terfs would say that and respect her. They'd campaign for women with DSDs to be treated differently, but with respect.

Instead, you pile on her, Semenya and others and accuse them of being evil violent men. It's misogynistic nonsense - and it's bullying. All.of it rooted in hatred for trans people.

Khelif being a proud Muslim woman who doesn't need the pity of Western women is a factor as well.

Shame on everyone who enjoys bullying her and calls it activism.

READER'S NOTE:

There is no evidence at all that Khelif has a vagina (although a blind cavity may sometimes be observed in some male people who have this DSD) and no evidence that Khelif has breasts.

Khelif is not transgender, and people who have read enough about 5ARD would not make that assumption. Either way, Khelif has been very clear that he does not consider himself as being transgender.

"This is a trick as old as time: women have always been made to fear being called masculine, because it removes theoretical protections against male violence."

Khelif is a male boxer and is punching female boxers with at least 160% greater punch power than a female boxer delivers.

Khelif is 'masculine' because he has been through male puberty as has been accessed by at least one expert panel and his DSD has been noted now by at least 2 endocrinologists and 1 other medical expert.

Semenya has been proven in court to have the same DSD that Khelif has. That is 5ARD which is a medical condition that only impacts on male people. At the CAS in Switzerland, evidence was presented that Semenya has 5ARD. This is no longer denied by Semenya either who has declared having testicles doesn't make him less of a woman. Well, yes, for competing in the Olympics, it certainly does.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

So when some posters frame legitimate arguments about male people competing in female sports categories as 'bullying' and then misrepresents the arguments as being 'hatred for trans people', it is important to look further and understand another dynamic that is happening.

This other dynamic is rather concerning. Some people in the past have politically leveraged a group of male athletes to support transgender rights activism. They have politicised a group of male athlete's medical condition to achieve political aims for a group of male people who are not likely at all to have that condition.

Such as when some posters might frame their accusations of hate and bullying about discussions of male athletes with DSDs, who have been tested and know that they are male athletes with DSDs, yet they choose to compete in female sports events, as being discussions involving trans people.

Those people who have leveraged a group of male people with medical conditions to then demonise and vilify female people. It can be said to be rather offensive to leverage a group's medical conditions that is unrelated to transgender identities, yet, it happens.

Just to recap, this is the latest news about Khelif, but there is a lot of information on MN FWR about Khelif as it gets reported.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5486573-imane-khelif-confirms-she-has-the-sry-gene?page=1

Here is the OIC statement:

https://www.olympics.com/ioc/news/international-olympic-committee-announces-new-policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-women-s-category-in-olympic-sport

here is the policy

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/International-Olympic-Committee/EB/policy/policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-category-english.pdf

This is the OIC findings about the Magnitude of Advantage:

At the elite level, the magnitude of the Male performance advantage is different depending on the sport or event:
o There is a 10-12 per cent Male performance advantage in most running and swimming events.
o There is a 20+ per cent Male performance advantage in most throwing and jumping events.
o The Male performance advantage can be greater than 100 per cent in events that involve explosive power, e.g. in collision, lifting and punching sports.

The Male performance advantage can be greater than 100 per cent in events that involve explosive power, e.g. in collision, lifting and punching sports.

Punching sports - can be greater than 100% in advantage.

And yet, apparently, discussing the violence in the ring against female athletes by a male athlete who has made a conscious choice to punch female athletes, often in the face as seen at the olympics, is described as bullying by some uninformed people. I call that a misinformed attempt to silence legitimate discussion.

Correction: There is no evidence at all in the public sphere that Khelif has a vagina

Oh god this and the Biggus Tittus thread has given me the mental image of ZP wearing those huge plastic norks but with hypo swirls on them...

Like this gif, but boobs. And on Zack.

"She has a vagina and breasts."

This is also another misrepresentation.

Having a vagina and breasts is not what actually defines who is female, however, all female people have or would have had a vagina if their bodies development followed the expected pathways.

The only real body part that is relevant as to whether a person is male or female is those which produce the gametes, either small or large gametes, as a human body is tested as to which category their body was formed to produce. Even if that body does not produce or has never produced or is producing those large or small gametes.

So, a male person with testes, even if they are under developed and internal is a male person. They do not have a body formed around the production of large gametes.

If posters are going to make statements about what they believe other people think, perhaps they should show some understanding in what those people understand rather than making misrepresentations. All it shows is either a determination to misrepresent, or that the statement maker has limited understanding of what they are referring to.

GL's appeal against SB re the phone is happening today. Nick Wallis is live tweeting.

Sarah Vine has put forward a Bad Character Application re SB. NW has got hold of the application and has tweeted it out. Very interesting and demonstrates all the connections to Lyndsay Watson etc all.

Just in case anyone was interested!

Link to Nick Wallis account of what is happening in the trial (he is providing a 'tribunal tweets' type commentary)

https://x.com/nickwallis/status/2049787379091718559

SV laid out all the connections between the TRAs very well.

But honestly, if you haven't been following closely, it must sound utterly insane.

Wings over Scotland has written a lengthy piece about the activities of Lyndsay Watson.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/how-to-get-away-with-crimes/

Semenya is genetically male - Semenya has 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD) which is a DSD of male people. Semenya has internal testes, produces and is sensitive to testosterone and went through male puberty.

As has been said ALL ALONG, it is very likely that Khelif has the same DSD - it’s in the public sphere that Khelif has XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone.

These are not trans individuals, so there can be no ‘hatred of trans people’. They will both know that they are male (having undergone a male puberty) and yet they (and others with the same DSD) were willing to take prizes and opportunities from actual women - including black women, disadvataged women and lesbian women.

Khelif refused to take the cheek swab test so failed to appear at last year’s Eindhoven Box Cup, despite being the poster child for the event. Why would that be do you think?

People (many of them women) have been campaigning for years against the unfair advantage that these mediocre males have exerted over women in the female category at elite level. Semenya’s personal bests are slower than the English Schoolboys records for 15/16 years old.

Apparently, highlighting this is bullying. To use the catastrophising language of that PP, perhaps we should all have just Shut The Fuck Up and let these male athletes continue to take opportunities away from female people.

Isn't it amazing that we are told that

"Throughout history, women (particularly those of colour and lesbians) have suffered this nonsense."

yet that poster cannot reconcile the fact that in shutting down discussion they are advocating to perpetuate the very loss of opportunity for "women (particularly those of colour and lesbians)".

Just like the poster leverages a group of male people with medical conditions to frame women discussing individual cases where female people have been subjected to unfair and unsafe conditions of competition, they are also trying to leverage women who have suffered oppression due to racism and homophobia. Yet, in leveraging those women, has completely fucking missed the point that the very people this poster is advocating for are continuing the oppression cycle through unfair and unsafe sporting conditions.

The more people try to justify their attempts at framing women's discussions as being hateful, the more some people will show that it is them who is not only hateful in their own way, but ill informed too. All because, women won't shut the fuck up and just let some male people do what they want when their decisions actively harm female people.

"Semenya’s personal bests are slower than the English Schoolboys records for 15/16 years old."

Very interesting. OTOH, if Semenya actually had run like a top rank male, many people would have woken up earlier to the fact that there was a male person with male advantages in the race.

Did Maya Forstatter and Sandie Peggie's careers worry you? That's the thing about justice. It needs to belong to people you don't like as well as you do.

Me? I'm old fashioned. I believe in evidence before conviction.