Jennifer Melle wins settlement from NHS

[RoyalCorgi]

Haven't seen a thread about this anywhere else, but Jennifer Melle, the nurse who refused to refer to a convicted sex offender by his preferred pronouns, and was disciplined, has won a settlement from the NHS trust she works for.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2vlxdnnpqo

I wonder if the patient in this case will complain to the bbc that they’ve used the pronoun ‘them’ rather than ‘she’? (I bet they would have not so long ago)

Thanks for the link, I’ve not read that article before. I had previously been looking for those rules of misogyny though, without success, do a double thank you.

Exactly, Errol.

Melle was racially abused by a transgender woman - who was born a biological male - after she addressed them as "Mr".

Nowhere in the piece does the BBC use 'she' or 'her' for the 6' male paedophile prisoner chained to two minders. Them should complain. After all, by the BBC not using preferred pronouns getting some kind of heightened response from this person in the situation [is] pretty predictable.

It's a sad fact that some men get a sexual thrill from forcing women and girls to use female pronouns for them.

Child rapist David Challenor is a famous example. He got a 20 year prison sentence for raping and torturing a little girl. He wore women's clothes during the rape and forced her to pretend he was female, which he clearly found arousing.

Women and girls have a legal right not to participate in the sexual fetishes of disturbed men.

One suspects so.

"She did not deserve to be racially abused, but getting some kind of heightened response from this person in the situation was pretty predictable."

I can't be the only person who considers that a 'but' in the middle of a sentence means the speaker doesn't necessarily agree with the words written before the 'but', but believes it socially required to include them?

Or as the Mary Catherine Pflug puts it - "Using the word ‘but’ in the middle of a sentence can negate everything that came before it."
https://medium.com/@mcpflug/using-the-word-but-a-brief-guide-to-sincerity-clarity-ab311a2af6a6

In case anyone thought I was exaggerating, here's more information about child rapist David Challenor. He also exploited his transgender son Aimee's political position in the Green Party to try to gain details about the addresses of vulnerable children.

It's a stark reminder that predatory men go to huge lengths to gratify their paraphilias.

DAVID CHALLENOR JAILED FOR 22 YEARS IN COVENTR – Red Rose UK

She didn’t do what I wanted…..

I'm waiting for some more nuance, frankly. There's always some nuance to be had.

It's the difference between having a belief and the way one enacts that belief.

The male prisoner can enact his belief and resort to threatening violence and virulent racist insults against Jennifer Melle who does not hold the same belief as him and she cannot enact her belief, fuinny that this belief enaction only goes one way.

I would suggest that a nurse can privately think what they like. I accept and endorse that there are times when to know natal sex or trans status is vital in medical situations. I don't think it's professional to use for ANY trans patient the title they have clearly rejected for themself, or the pronouns they have rejected. It's easy enough to avoid saying "Mr Jones". In fact I can't think of an occasion when my title has been used by a doctor or nurse in a hospital, I am always plain Emma Smith in bay 3. They probably haven't asked if it's Miss Smith, Ms Smith, Mrs Smith or Dr Smith for that matter.

The trans patients have rejected titles and pronouns for themself, which according to you means everyone else has to go along with their demands and collude in their belief about themselves, seriously? Trans patients can believe what the hell they like about themselves no-one should be forced to collude with and go along with that belief.

My baseline presumption, is that you cannot control someone's thoughts; they are entirely free to think that it's a load of bollocks, but there's no need to agitate patients in general by using "factual-but-rejected" titles and pronouns. You can thinks it's bollocks, but enacting that is unprofessional. I believe that was actually mentioned in the WORIADS judgement, that deliberate misgendering was unlikely to be treated with impunity.

No you cannot control people's thoughts but that is exacty what you are demanding is done by colluding with the falsity that the male person in front of Jennifer Melle must be referred to as a female person in line with his thoughts about himself. People must be forced to lie and go against their own deeply held beliefs, submit and be craven otherwise when they are subjected to virulent abuse and threats it's their own fault.

It's particularly inflammatory to decide to use a "factual-but-rejected" title with a person who is clearly a) violent and under restraint and b) already agitated and upset.

Look what you made me do, the mantra of the abuser the world over.

It's her own fault for being black.

Oh FFS.

The male person absolutely cannot enact their beliefs. Show me where I said that his behaviour was ok.
There is a huge difference between "that behaviour is acceptable" and "that behaviour is predictable".

You don't collude in someone's belief by avoiding using the term "Mr" or not telling them to their face that you cannot use their chosen pronouns.

What's your nuanced position then?

That's a fair point.

My late father was Eastern European - very obviously male - but had a forename which looks and sounds female to Western ears.

True story: he was once booked into hospital for a planned operation. Someone had only looked at his name and not the sex on his record and had accidentally booked him into the women's ward.

Dad was a 6ft coalminer and found it quite amusing. It was very quickly sorted out, however - as soon as he reported to the ward and the startled ward sister saw him: this was the 1980s.

The male person absolutely cannot enact their beliefs. Show me where I said that his behaviour was ok.

What would you call insisting being referred to as female when you are clearly male if not enacting your beliefs and forcing others to collude with them.

You don't collude in someone's belief by avoiding using the term "Mr" or not telling them to their face that you cannot use their chosen pronouns.

Yes you do, Jennifer was talking about the patient not to the patient when she used the term 'Mr' and had every right to do so. Jennifer Melle when confronted with demands, threats and abuse from the patient that she refer to him by female pronouns stated she could not as it was against her beliefs but she would use the chosen name of the patient.

Once again in your world Jennifer Melle must supress and go against her beliefs and submit to the beliefs held by the male patient.

I know - Jane Russell in the Peggie hearing couldn’t help herself - and eventually called Isla Bumba, Isla Bryson!! Who’s side was she on?!?

My position is that I should post less fewer less not as often.

Where's your ample sheep then?

Maybe the notes should have read "Patient has been diagnosed with and is receiving treatment for a mental illness which makes him think that he is a women. He may become very violent if misgendered. Please restrict yourself to using the patient's name only and avoid using correctly sexed pronouns and titles in his hearing." It could be on the front cover in red, like allergies to penicillin.
What do you think @AlwaysNuance ? Should the mental illness be flagged up to avoid escalation?

I vehemently object to your insinuation that I hold racist beliefs. Show me where or withdraw your allegation.

Your little link (and carefully selected quote) points out that this "negation" is absolutely not always the case, and suggests that for clarity, put the positive thing first. Ok.

Getting some kind of heightened response in that situation was pretty predictable, but she did not deserve to be racially abused. At all. It is not acceptable. Racism, and peadophilia for that matter, are horrible things. This was a horrible person.

Maybe something like "this is a violent and aggressive person. When agitated this person is unpredictable and likely to lash out verbally and physically. Try not to further enrage this person in any way when they are already dysregulated and ill".

Some posters on this thread seem to be determined to tell us that women should lie about someone's sex to make them feel better.

Never mind how telling the lie might feel to the woman obliged to spout it.

Wasn't it Madeline Burns who said, 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar?'
Edited for a typo.

Yes. As I said in my previous post, it was common for people to misunderstand my dad's name. Hence we and others often emphasised the "Mr" when we had to give his full name. (He used an Anglicised short form of the name in everyday life.)

I'd forgotten that particular gem!

Yeah, the NHS has all the time in the world to phrase everything ever so delicately for the sake of the feelings of people like this.

I was listening to a podcast yesterday in which a forester was telling the tale of how he ended up in hospital with a broken leg. He had to cut off his own chainsaw trousers, and was in the same gown from when he was admitted until he was discharged a few days later - having had surgery in the meantime. He was initially put to bed wearing the muddy chainsaw trousers, and put back onto the same muddy sheets after surgery, because the hospital's laundry wasn't working (and it was a rural hospital too far from any other hospital to send the laundry there). The sheets also acquired some blood from the surgical wound.

Perhaps we should be focussing out sorting out issues like that, rather than running around pandering to aggressive men and tormenting nurses who won't suck up to them.

Honest to God, some people need to plumb themselves back into reality.