feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

So why did you refer to it as an eye for an eye which suggests some equivalence?

Yes, this is where I have a problem. Your colleague might be a lovely sensitive type who you know well and trust completely and you might have no objection to him using the ladies' loos. But then along comes another trans person who you don't know. You cannot then object to him using the Ladies', can you?

I didn’t. On this thread I haven’t seen it but on others I’ve seen things which say I guess I’ll become a lemon. And if you say that’s a bit mocking and disrespectful you get TONE POLIZINGGGGGGG or THEY THREATEN TO RAPE USSSSSS and I’m just like they’re also taking hormones and having plastic surgery… you going to start doing that too?
that’s what I mean by my phrasing

So a woman refusing to call a man a woman is as bad as a rape threat? Wow! I’ve seen some “both sides” but that takes the three tier wedding cake!

Why would you feel “personally rejected” by other women having different views to you about feminism? Main character or what! No one told you where you can post, did they?

Why are you mocking women saying they get rape threats from abusive men?

Are you the kind of feminist that centres men's desires over women's needs? That kind of feminist?

No why on earth do you think I think this? This annoys me about this forum more than any ‘transphobia’.
the formula

1. make a mild claim
2. watch people jump on your language choice
3. defend yourself from silly obvious accusations
4. roll your eyes because mostly you agree with these people you just don’t want to insult others

Im not mocking you. This is what I mean. You jump down people’s throats for disagreeing with you on strategy rather than principles and it’s exhausting

I know right. I too am shocked by the hate and misogyny shown towards women fighting for their sex based rights. I was particularly appalled by the callousness shown towards rape survivors by a male with a trans identity who told them their trauma at seeing males in female spaces wasn’t as bad as his trauma when women said no. I assume that’s the hate and disrespect you’re referring to?

You literally did mock women saying they get rape threats, mate.

A mold claim that a woman saying no to a man is the same as a rape threat in nastiness. That mild claim?

i didn’t mock them. I pointed out why people have a problem with these boards. And it’s not every trans person threatening rape. It’s a few. So I’m not going to insult all of them because a small minority have made vile threats. Putting it in capitals with letters to highlight isn’t mocking.

It was both mocking and disrespectful.

Honestly I think those saying they find women here 'hateful' are scared to believe that these women have a point and might be right.

Pages and pages of reasoned responses and we're back to 'it's all so hateful'.

To be totally tricked into believing that there are people who would use a whole movement to abuse women and children is a heavy pill to swallow.

You're brought up to #BeKind, thinking that you must elevate anyone who proclaims to be vulnerable and marginalised, thinking you're 'on the right side of history ' and it turns out these same people have opened the door to an utter horror that has carried out the worst medical scandal of our times on children.

'I can't deal with the hate' = 'I can't deal with the fact that this could be true'.

I also struggle to deal with the fact that this could be true. But it is.

I never said they were equivalent. I explained my subjective moral line and why I don’t respond to insults with insults

I don’t see vile language from women discussing this. I do see some very nasty violent threats from some trans identified men aimed at women, especially online, but also in person. Where are gangs of masked women protesting gatherings of trans people? Nowhere. But women meeting together are frequently hounded by angry and violent trans identified men wearing face masks.

We are perfectly capable of conversation and discussion, but we also find that any rational discussion gets shut down as soon as believers in genderism reach any point of cognitive dissonance.

I can absolutely see the humanity of people who have a trans identity, but it doesn’t mean I think that they are correct in their belief that they are, in some unspecified way, actually of the opposite sex to their body.
I think this is a false belief, arrived at for any number of complex psychological reasons, and it would mostly be better addressed by psychological means. I don’t doubt that for a few cases, the least bad solution is for them to present as the opposite sex. But, this doesn’t mean they really are the opposite sex, or that we all have to pretend that they are no different to actual members of that sex. It simply isn’t true, and we can’t organise society based on a massive game of make believe in situations where people’s actual sex matters. It’s not a serious proposition.

If all trans people are so fragile that if we don’t support their belief they are the opposite sex at all times, they will suffer mental collapse, the problem is with their mental framing of themselves. We can treat people with respect and kindness in day to day interactions without compromising our own knowledge of reality and pretending we share their beliefs.

In your opinion. In mine it highlighted an issue.

People have a problem with these boards because women speak about being threatened with rape by abusive men, do they?

Yes,yes it really is. It’s up there with the posters saying rape victims need to get over their trauma and allow males in female spaces. What you said was disgusting.
So how many males with a trans identity threatening to rape women is acceptable before women get angry and upset?

You did mention “eye for an eye” which really does suggest equivalence.

Absolutely. I am a woman, but know a lot of men who describe themselves as feminists, meaning they care about women having equal rights, and feel, as I do, that stating you must act in certain way because you are a woman (such as having to obey a spouse/only be allowed certain jobs), is wrong and dangerous to both sexes.

Perhaps you’re not very self aware. I find it a feature, rather than a bug in discussions with people who claim their approach is “nuanced” and everyone else is doing it wrong.

People have a problem when you say all of one group are something becuase of the actions of a small minority when you talk about any group yes

My opinion isn’t nuanced. I don’t insult others even if they’ve insulted me first.