feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Why do you think men needed to 'protect the lineage' when women started farming?

So I’ve asked you for evidence of your claims and beliefs and you say that what people say here is your evidence.

no harm, but that’s not evidence. that wouldn't pass undergraduate 101.

Gender is is irrelevant to this.

sex and paternity and lineage has nothing to do with gender.

ETA. Sex in the sense of having sex with someone and being sure that their progeny are genetically yours.

Ah, the old "pre agricultural societies were feminist paradises" trope.

Maybe. Like you say, we don't know.

Always worth remembering there are species where an incoming male kills his predecessors offspring though. Males caring about their lineage is not unique to humans.

I am in agreement with some of what you say op

there have always been people who have lived as the other sex, quietly getting on with their lives but often have had to deal with ridicule. There have also been children who are confused by feeling they have been born in the wrong body. These people deserve to be treated with dignity and empathy

But what we now have is people in the middle who want to be supportive and understanding while being protective over females being drowned out by one side telling us being a woman is a state of mind and the other side dismissing any concerns raised by trans people.

as with politics and many social issues conversation has lost its place and who shouts the loudest is taking over the conversation and its harmful to so many

and who is being harmed the most are children who are confused who hear these angry and often hateful arguments

what harm does it cause me referring to someone as she/he or accept that they feel they were born in the wrong body, it doesn't

#SadTimes

I disagree.

calling someone by their wrong sex pronouns weakens the protection for single sex spaces.

also. What does “born in the wrong body” mean to you?

So why do you think the male animals of numerous species that don't farm will kill the offspring of other males?

what harm does it cause me referring to someone as she/he or accept that they feel they were born in the wrong body, it doesn't

It harms all women to condone the sexist idea that the fundamental difference between men and women is not the facts of our bodies but something to do with how we think, so if we are female but think the "wrong way" for a woman we must be a man, or vice versa.

Can you not see how sexist that belief is? Can you not see how it takes us right back to "girls are caring but bad at maths and leadership"?

Gender becomes relevant because once you have strict rules about how people behave discrimination and stereotypes happen

I said if I am calling them he/she. If rules are put in place that they can only go in single sex spaces then they are rules put in place that I am not in control of

Also if I accept that is how they feel, they feel they are born into the wrong body

I do wonder though. Which animal were we most like?

Oh ok I thought you meant my claims that people extrapolate and make false accusations. That’s in this thread.
my beliefs are heavily influenced by Marxism.

One of my favorites!

It is the specific suggestion that the start of farming (plant husbandry at least seems to have always been a mainly female activity) suddenly triggered a change in the men's behavior that baffles me.

Ok so the theory is because they had assets to hand down so paternity became important compared to before when they were nomadic and lived in big tribes where everyone looked after each other so it wouldn’t matter as much

Op what you mean by transphobia?

not all of them do though. It’s been said we’re quite close to bonobos and they’re not violent

Some of us are most like bonobos, but there is a whiff of chimp from a few posters.

I think I’m like one of the irritating little ones that goes but what about this????? Hahah

Ooo they are!

www.science.org/content/article/bonobos-hippie-chimps-might-not-be-so-mellow-after-all

Be careful about anthropomorphising animals. Humans are very susceptible to cod science and simple stories.

I can accept that people feel they are born into the wrong body, I personally see no issue in feeling empathic towards them feeling this way and belive its must be exremely difficult.

I feel for myself that calling someone by their preferred pronouns whatever they are isn't the issue. I may not see someone as a woman but they feel they are, its not for me to go around correcting people on how they feel

Trans people have always been around, they should be able to live in a world where they are not ridiculed or mocked or outcasts from society

I think part of the difference in opinion might be helped by specifying in what ways gender stereotyping impacts us all every day.

For example, those of us who say we are not impacted probably mean we feel free to dress how we like, cut our hair how we like, not wear make up, work in any job we like, take up any hobbies we like without being at all concerned about whether we are doing something deemed appropriate for a woman to do.

And those who say we are impacted whether we like it not could either be saying that our choices in jobs/clothes/hobbies are subconsciously impacted OR could be saying that we are impacted by other people’s opinions on how we should present or act eg by experiencing discrimination based on being female, not being listened to, being ripped off at the garage, or not being offered jobs because we are female.

I would like to know what is really meant by “it impacts you every day”.

aww But they still seem nicer than chimps though. That’s quite sweet the males don’t target the females but worrying the females like the violent ones 🙈😭😂

Well it could be all of the things you mentioned. All are equally valid. It doesn’t have to be either or