feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

But when people encounter these impacts, in the form of pronouns that privilege ‘gender’ over sex, your argument is they should go along with them or at the very least not challenge them.

You seem happy to rail against sexism, but not to confront it in the real world.

Indeed, I was going to say it sounded like the Gordon Childe Marxist-influenced stuff that we were warned not to rely on when I was an archaeology undergraduate some time ago. Rooted in optimism and political theory, not in any observable fact.

If something was regarded as bogus,superficial and old-fashioned in the 1970s, maybe that was because it was bogus etc.

My argument is I stay neutral at work and try to avoid being controversial. I can’t fight every angle at once

Funny how I present these as arguments towards a more modern theory. There is no optimism in what I’m saying but I agree gender ideals control women and are embedded into society

But preferred pronouns arent a neutral act.

'dismissing the concerns of trans people' - which concerns are being dismissed?

Who is not treating children 'with dignity and empathy '?

What are the 'hateful arguments'?

Re the harm of accepting a false belief as true, if you RTFT it's been explained upteen times.

No, you don't. You are recycling the 1950s/1960s theory.

The more modern theory when I was first exposed to the stuff you are referring to was Greer's Female Eunuch. For me, that stands the test of time - and rejects any idea that gender stereotypes (the concept of 'femininity') are good for women.

No matter the theory, there remain two sexes and in certain ways they are different to each other, and as a direct consequence there will always be some degree of differentiation.

We cannot eliminate difference; indeed it would be dystopian to attempt to, in my view; though, at best, we can accommodate differences to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the nature and demands of that difference.

Well, no. You said “the moment you refuse to use people’s proper pronouns. People just judge you as bigots”. Now I might have missed the “when in fact you are striking a blow against the inherent sexism of society in general, and gender ideology in particular” subtext but I don’t think I did. Particularly when the same post talked about being polite

Sounds more like postmodern to me, which is the bonkers philosophy behind all the Omnicause batshittery.

I'm going to guess politically you're a Green or even 😱 a Your Party.

I’ll check it out. Archeology is not my discipline. I don’t particularly care about farming but I do think ‘gender’ as a concept has been around a long time. I don’t have time to go back to undergrad for a subject I don’t need to know much about.
proud left winger.

@theywontletmehavethenameiwantDon’t like British politics, probably would have voted for Corbyn - cue the onslaught haha

Proper was the wrong word choice. I meant proper as in the ones they want you to use

Yes that’s the thing isn’t it. Equity over equality. I feel we’re in late stage capitalism if you want more modern theory. What comes next I don’t know

It was all well and good for Marx and Engels to sit there pontificating about the nature of society and producing theories of liberation...whilst Marx's housekeeper gave birth to Marx's illegitimate child, who was subsequently sent away and then expected to use the servant's entrance when visiting his mother.. Marx never claimed paternity nor put his name to the birth certificate, and never provided any financial support.

Your use of ‘proper’ has been picked up several times. Given that you haven’t clarified its use before now, you’re going to have to forgive me for my scepticism regarding it merely being a poor ‘word choice’.

That aside, you still suggested that politeness was more important than challenging sexism.

It isn't compulsory to know anything about either archaeology or farming, but if you don't, then it would be wise not to use someone else's take on them to back up a theory about something as contentious as gender.

I'm not sure we need a new theory so much as a pragmatic response to conditions. A response that is predicated on the knowledge and understanding that there are two sexes and that there are some differences between the sexes which need to be acknowledged and to some degree accommodated.

I think all societies go through ages/ stages/phases.......and each new stage brings with it a response to the last one; some sort of modification and or re-visioning, and sometimes even re-visiting. I don't think human nature or society really changes, and history does not move forward in a straight line.Patterns repeat and play out and each new generation seems to have to learn for itself.

I didn’t say I agreed with how they’ve applied these ideas. I said my beliefs - that gender is a social construct derived from controlling women and there are theories that gender (the social construct) has been around since farming and arguably got worse or more important. Someone asked me where I’d seen these ideas. I directed them to people who explain this far better than Me: she asked. I answered. You’re now saying these are debunked - without evidence - in archeology - to someone applying these ideas to nothing to do with archeology. Please stop having a go at me for not agreeing with you. It’s boring

Capitalism isn’t working. For most of the world it’s not working. I welcome something completely different though what no one has convinced me yet

I don't know how this will be received, either by other posters or by mattala , but:
that there are many many challenges to mattala's posts, including some of mine and there's only one mattala trying to read and respond to them all.
I can understand how all those posters blend into a haze and it's hard to know who said what, who was polite, who was polite but 'Oh FFS not that line again!' and who just said exactly what they thought, without frills.

I'm not saying that any of that is wrong, or even avoidable but I have this image of mattala in the middle a circle not knowing where the next question is coming from... like fielding practice at a cricket training session or something.

Sometimes mattala is going to use a word like 'proper' because it was a quick reaction, but when it's posted, it stays posted.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, mattala , and some of your reactions haven't met your own standards of what you expect of others, but I have sympathy for your position in the middle of the circle handling all that 'incoming'

My adhd cannot cope lol

Gender as a mechanism has been around a long time, but it wasn't recognised as such.

Beliefs society had about natural mental/emotional/aptitude differences between the sexes were used to justify what was actually artificial controls on who could take what social roles.

Recognising these differences were not innate but socially constructed and enforced was a key Feminist insight, and the terminology of Gender was coined to differentiate these socially constructed and enforced attributes, mostly mental and emotional, from attributes that are innate features of biological sex, mostly physical.

Have you any contemporary references from say the last 5/10 years?

If that's the case, I assure you I wouldn't LOL at you, mattala.
You've got stamina, I'll say that for you, you've stayed in the discussion longer than a lot of posters
but I hope you don't push yourself beyond what's OK for you.