Late night surprise about reputation of FWR

[IwantToRetire]

I was on Site Stuff to report back on ongoing freezing and noticed another thread about whether Mumsnet should apologise about deleting threads about ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

And there were some comments about there being a border line between legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and anti semitism. And it is this last that get these threads deleted.

So was surprised to see some comment on this thread saying it was as bad as some threads on FWR, and those particularly at fault are thos with a GC view point.

(Funnily enough AI suggested a title for this thread along the lines of "Are FWR debates judged differently ..... " but now it has hidden its suggestion, just when I was going to use it.)

Oh its come back

"Are sex and gender debates on FWR judged by different standards?"

You’re surprised? I note you haven’t discussed the response to posters bringing this up, as I think it illustrates the problem beautifully. In response to this comment: “there have been some horrifically hateful posts from both sides, though I have to say, it seems more so on the women’s rights side. It has meant that some of those debates have become so toxic you are put off from trying to make any meaningful, reasonable contribution,” a poster said “perhaps you’d like to post links for those posts?” Then another poster said “This poster will struggle to find any “horrifically hateful posts” from any women of MN because there aren’t any. Quite the opposite, in fact” then just to seal the deal, “Better stop those witches discussing women’s rights eh?”

There is no debate allowed in this environment. None.

I note you haven’t discussed the response to posters bringing this up, as I think it illustrates the problem beautifully.

If I had wanted to discuss is I would have posted under the OP.

I started the thread to let those on FWR know this - that it / the forum was being discussed.
Maybe it just is that simple.

You have leapt in and presumed the intention.

I'll give you a hint. Reread the title

Late night surprise about reputation of FWR

ie Never occured to me anyone would bother, or insert into a discussion about the conflict in the ME, comments about FWR!

The debate goes on constantly. But I have yet to see anything hateful from the GC side.

I agree. When challenged, those who say there are posts hateful to trans people are never able to come up with any examples.

Maybe we should follow JKR's example and offer a reward for any examples provided of "hate" or "transphobia" on FWR.

What do we think? A pack of Tunnocks tea cakes? Adult Human Female hoodie?
Too on the nose? 😂

What's FWR?

Why do you think the debate goes on constantly then?

Forgive me. The intention of your OP wasn’t particularly clear. Also, I am discussing the reputation of FWR.

Because men are awful at accepting women saying no.

Fairwork/womens rights

That isn’t quite what I meant. My meaning was there is no way for anyone to have even a slight diversion of thought on this forum without being met by instant considerable aggressive opposition.

But there are many diversions of thought posted. Do you mean if someone posts something that others don’t agree with, it is challenged and examined and posters are supposed to be able to back up their arguments?

Perhaps you could give an example so as to clarify what your going on about.

The current thread with Mattala is just one instance. You may not like what the poster says, but she has every right to say it without the hostility she received. This occurs again and again.

You mean the poster who thinks the USA brought AIDS to Africa to control the population. 🤯
They were challenged on their posts, that's not hostile that's what forums like MN are all about.

Like I said, you may not like what the poster says, but she has every right to say to say it without being met such an environment of hostility. This happens all the time. Posters are challenged robustly. In reality, they are peppered with multiple snide questions, insulted, misgendered, deliberately misunderstood, and mild statements taken to mean they “hate women”, “trying to stop women speaking” or “trying to stop a rape victim from speaking” (or variants of such)”.

All these tactics certainly are not encouragements for anyone to return or remain on FWR, are they?

Have you ever tried to post a mildly pro women’s rights comment on say… Reddit? I dare you. Then you might see hostility and nastiness.

I mean on this board I’ve seen rape victims mocked for saying why they need female only spaces, I’ve seen sexism and misogyny from posters claiming women just need to let men into female spaces as “men are gonna attack you anyway”. I’ve seen women told they are nazi evil bigots. I’ve seen women told their fear of menttacking them is silly and stupid. I’ve seen women called bitter old hags. And this is by posters who claim to be “on the right side of history”. I assume you’ll be scolding all those posters too?

There is a substantial difference between the complexities of situations in the Middle East where there are valid points in the reasoning from both sides and flaws and deep historical, political, justice based complexities…

and the comparatively simple discussions about ‘gender’ or ‘sex’ where there is a black and white truth and the discussion is simply that the GC folks clarify and layout that truth against a bombardment of obfuscation, bullying, inaccuracies, etc.

you can’t get much simpler than the simple truth that you are born male or female and can’t change - that anyone should even think to argue otherwise is scientifically and logically absurd - that they try and gaslight and deceive people into believing otherwise for reasons which can be complex but are generally about man anti woman needs to be rebutted, and the clarity of the truth means that it is easy to do so bluntly, succinctly, and accurately - most often by simply stating the truth and asking those who disagree to evidence their position (which they can’t!)

so while forums are places for discussion where both sides bring argument to influence the others, in the discussion on gender there is a difference as it doesn’t matter what argument is put forward, there is no choice, fact, science, biology will remain the same! Situations like the Middle East though has nuance and accuracy and inaccuracy on both sides lending itself far better to debate.

there is also the fact that the debate on gender is rarely new, when there is one basic fact sitting at the heart of the discussion, the reality is that most discussions have already taken place before so it is rarely new…

So, yes I agree with the OP in being surprised that the two areas for discussion are compared

It's not about like or disliking what anyone says, if someone makes a comment that flat out bonkers, they should expect a reaction to it. Just because everyone has a 'right' to an opinion doesn't mean they have a 'right' to have that opinion respected. Some opinions are not worth holding and only just qualify as an opinion, if such opinions get challenged it might seem hostile to the person with the opinion but maybe that's because their opinion is rubbish.

There’s a massive difference between the issues in the Middle East and FWR.

Specifically that being a woman is an undeniable scientific fact. Trans is an ideology with no scientific basis.

The varying points of view relating to the Middle East are complicated by history and religion; so many different things are interpreted via different lenses. It’s clear that there are victims and major crimes on all sides.

Some posters only ever seem to see one side, they don’t see the goading from the side they agree with.

Re Reddit: There are a lot of women on MN who post on Reddit who don’t experience the majority of the site, which is culturally deeply misogynistic, and whinge about how civilised it is compared to MN, and FWR in particular.

I’m not surprised by the link because both FWR boards and Middle East boards host complex topics where some people argue “my valid opinion is being censored” and others argue “everything you say is hate speech that must be deleted”.

You are free to argue both sides here. The GC side tends to dominate because their arguments and ideas are better and more coherent. The only platforms where gender ideology views dominate are the ones that censor and suppress opposing views.

Exactly.

Feminism and Women’s Rights