feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

I think we get your rather simplistic point. ( "be kind", "be respectful", "do as you please, and as other people would like you to do", " No harm" and so on). What you don't seem to get is that beyond the individual and their personal preferences there is a deeper and wider set of ramifications. Ramifications which impact upon everyone at a societal level...and it is with those concerns that most of us here are engaged.

Who decides which conversations are casual? And, give that the pronouns in question are generally used in the absence of the person being spoken about, what is the purpose of using them?

I never said should use preferred pronouns to be kind/respectful/polite. In fact, I'm not telling anyone what they should do when it comes to using preferred pronouns.

It feels like it is you you are trying to tell me not to use them. I personally don't think preferred pronouns a big a deal as you do.

No. I'm saying these are words that have been used, including on this very thread, against women who don't socially acomodate trans identities.

Out of interest are you reading the whole thread or only responses to your own posts?

For instance when people belittle women speaking about their experiences of receiving violent threats from abusive trans identified males, because they think a descriptive analogy used by someone else is “mean” and “problematic”.

You don't get to tell other people their concerns about the impact of the language you use on other people don't matter just because you don't see why it matters though.

I hope you wouldn't tell someone that racist or homophobic language is ok as long as the person using it doesn't think it's a big deal, so please don't fall into the trap of believing it's ok if it's only sexist language. Women matter as well.

A casual conversation is outside of an institution or organisation (court/workplace/school/business/media/hospital etc) usually between friends and family. All organisations and institutions should treat a transwoman as male.

You’ll have to try harder to wind me up lovey.

And of course what I’m getting at is that no one is going to be taking any self righteous lectures about what is “problematic” from that type of poster.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. If you are offended by people having different opinions to your own you should get off social media. Me saying preferred pronouns are not a massive issue to me is not a sexist statement, it is just a statement of my perspective which happens to be different to yours. Preferred pronouns rank quite low on the scale of issues that worry me just being honest especially when compared to war in the middle east, climate change, nuclear testing etc

And neither will anyone from you given your demonstrated hypocrisy around tone policing

If someone tells me they are in pain of suffering, I say "That sounds really difficult." Depending on our relationship, I might offer support.

If a 58yo father of 3 tells me he's a woman, I say "Don't be so bloody daft. You are male, you can't be a woman."

And if more people had said that, I do believe we’d be better off for it now.

We're well past the point where individuals can decide to use preferred pronouns as and when they see fit.

We all know that PP are very important to people and there use is seen as a signal that others are supportive or not. Allies enforce it too.

Its not like any other title. Its not like Dr, Mrs or Brigadier, they all have clear meanings. Calling a man she is changing the meaning of the word.

Everyone knows this, so PP cannot be used casual without a lot of subtext.

I agree (sorry, I initially misinterpreted your post!)

I won't pretend that a religion's god is real, or treat their religious customs as valid, when I don't believe in them.

I won't pretend a man can be a woman, or treat their claim to be such as valid, when I know they aren't.

So I'm either religiously intolerant and transphobic, or not religiously intolerant and not transphobic. Which is it?

And I would say ‘why do you think you’re a woman? How long has this being going on? What about being a woman is resonating for you? When did this become a feeling you could no longer ignore’ and this is why i am trained and you are not

I'm still unsure what you mean by this. A conversation between friends in the workplace isn't casual but one in the street is? I'm also not sure how much sense your original post makes. That is "I don't mind using preferred pronouns as long as transwomen know that they are not legally entitled to enter women's spaces." I mean, do you check their position on entry into female-only spaces before choosing their pronouns?

I guess this all goes back to your first statement that you're not a feminist, so you are maybe not seeing this in the same structural way that others are. It's all just individual choices, made in a vacuum.

You haven't read my posts, have you?

First of all I specifically said I would NOT get in the face of a transperson and say something confrontative.

Secondly I went into some detail about what I believe is the solution to someone in pain or suffering because they can't accept their biological sex- OK so it's just my suggestion, but I'm somebody who actually has personal experience of, and survived gender distress. Which I spoke about in my posts.

In case you don't have time to read my posts- spoiler: my suggestion is that the solution is the truth, and loving support to help the person suffering and in pain accept the truth.

The definition of feminism is liberation for the female sex from oppression via patriarchy.

Refusing to play along with the idea that humans, among all mammals on planet Earth, can change sex is perfectly congruent with feminist thought. Males who claim womanhood use the fawning behaviour of women who go along with wrong-sex pronouns, and who say they don't mind mixed-sex spaces, as proof that society views them as women and therefore, QED, they ARE women.

Going along to get along makes the problem worse for ALL women and girls - I'm not prepared to do that.

I didn’t claim to be “trained” and people who are “trained” have created a large part of this whole problem 🤷‍♀️

Insitutions and organisations have an obligation to the public to uphold the legal status of a transwoman as a man, for example a newspaper reporting on a crime should always refer to a transwoman perpertator as he. You as a person having a chat with a friend and calling him 'her' don't have that same responsiblity.

Entry to bathroom is based on sex, so preferred pronouns are irrelevant. There's no genital check or anything but service providers and organisations should enforce the law to the fullest extent.

The issue here is trans is an umbrella that covers from one end - middle-aged men who know full-well they are not women, but getting everyone else to play along with their fetish turns them on to - young girls who have often been through sexual trauma trying to escape their bodies who are very confused and suffering.

(I realise there are many who don't fall into these two groups, it is a big umbrella. But these two groups are significant)

For the first group using PP is, in short, giving a man with a fetish a 'euphoria boner'.

For the second, using PP as a kindness can actually cause real mental harm if/when the girl in question has doubts about transitioning. Can you imagine realising that everyone in your life had been lying to you about your reality? Noone willing to tell you the truth out of 'politeness'? Who would you be able to trust after that?

And, unfortunately, I believe the push for PP is coming primarily from the first group who are using the second group as cannon fodder.

Would you ask those questions of a,say 6 year old boy who thought they were a girl?