feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

It’s not only the issue of women and children’s safety but also their privacy and dignity, never mind their sports places and prizes, their positions on podiums (eg women authors), their reserved places (eg women’s political officers).

The trans-identifying men seem somehow to be very male in their ability to push themselves forward and to take women’s awards and prizes. Funny that.

Do you not understand your own position? At the risk of repetition, you said "I don't mind using preferred pronouns as long as transwomen know that they are not legally entitled to enter women's spaces." (my emphasis). This states clearly that your use of preferred pronouns is conditional "as long as transwomen know that they are not legally entitled to enter women's spaces". So how do you establish that? Is it done on a case by case basis? Many transwomen clearly believe that they should have the right to enter women's spaces, and do so. So, how do you ensure you are not using 'preferred pronouns' for them?

What exactly are you trained in?

Because that line of questioning is really not an objective one.

No I would ask them of the dad of 3.
a child would be open ended why do you think this when did you start thinking this can you explain what you mean by this

Asking the right questions and listening and making people feel they have a safe space to share experiences

I'm offended by sexism yes. Angered even. I think it's a stain on society, a deep wound that festers and poisons. I think- no, I know, because I've looked for the numbers, that the number of women's lives lost over the years to sexism dwarves the casualties of the current Middle East conflict and the worst thing is it is so normalised people don't even notice, they just think it is normal.

I don't think that means I need to "get off social media", I think it means I need to stay and explain why it's problematic and to make it visible that such language is not considered acceptable by everyone.

Can I ask though, if your philosophy is "others disagree with me, just let it go", why are you posting on this thread?

If speaking to a close friend, we'd might know if they use women's spaces?

Although, what if they do start using women's spaces? Or start insisting, not just requesting PP.

Often the transition escalates or the man has targets nobody else knows about - intends to use women's spaces after 2 years, or when people do use PP.

It's very frustrating when posters have taken time to explain why PP are an issue, and those comments are just ignored.

I don't call you names. I do, however, say that your position is sexist and damaging to women.

I read as much as I can. The people who use the words vile and bile have nothing to do with me so it seems pretty random you keep directing these words at me

And that's fine. You are entitled to believe that.

I like social media. I was already permanently banned from reddit for being gender critical so thought I would be more welcome here.

After you've asked all those wonderful questions, and got the answers (the details of which may be very very important between you and the patient) - the patient is going to leave the room and go home.

When they go home, if your training means that the discussion you have leads the patient to think it's unreasonable for the rest of the world not to accept him as a woman - then yes, you are part of the problem.

they’re not my patients and it doesn’t lead them to think anything. It asks what they mean by these feelings and gives them space to examine them. I can’t say what my line of work is but it involves victims of male violence

I got rather busy yesterday, so my apologies for the delay in responding. I can’t possibly reply to everyone individually, but I have had a good scroll through all the comments.

if anyone wants me to specifically reply to a point, it would be helpful if anyone could quote their comment to bring it back to the top.

Otherwise:

Yes, I have read the ‘pronouns are rohypnol’ article linked a few times. In the article excerpt used, I think it would be equally abhorrent whether male or female pronouns were used. The incident sounds awful, and I believe anyone who committed it is an awful person. I fail to see their point re pronouns here as I don’t think it’s suddenly worse when it’s a male offender. Women can be (and have been proven to me) paedophiles in the same way men can be. I do not feel that a persons pronouns change my fear receptors or confuse me.

I feel some responses are being deliberately obtuse or obstructive. Of course I’m not for one second saying pronouns should be law to follow or anything like that. I am simply stating my opinion that (generally) people who refuse to use preferred pronouns etc are much closer to the idea of transphobia than others are.

Additionally, as I’ve seen this point a few times, of course if someone assaults a person then suddenly states they are trans, this is an entirely different situation. I am clearly referring to an “average joe” scenario, not depraved individuals. If anything, these scenarios of people who claim to be trans after committing a horrible act should not be listened to (and this is probably why I’d be considered gender critical in lots of circles!) I don’t really feel this point is therefore relevant to this particular argument 🤷🏻‍♀️

As I said, happy to answer others if they’re highlighted so I can find them. I’m sure i’ll get some people who are grumpy I won’t scroll through 500 comments to reply, but I don’t have all day 🤣

mattala, you are more disrespectful of people who identify as something other than human than the posters using a lemon to say that vitamin C does not a lemon make (nor estrogen a woman) or to say that identifying as a lemon does not change material reality.

I was severely abused as a child, both sexually and physically. I tried IDing as a boy, hoping my abusers would leave me alone (and feeling guilty for any people they might abuse instead). Obviously, that didn't work because you can't identify out of your sex and my own feelings of devoutly longing to be a boy didn't matter to my abusers.

Then I didn't want to be a boy because they were cruel and I wanted to be good. So I identified as various inanimate objects for decades. I know others who identified as animals (most of them not in a furry way) or other things. You may not know them but there are people who identify as types of food. They probably wouldn't tell you unless you had been very, very close to them for years. I have never told anyone in real life because, even as a young child, I knew that would be seen as crazy and I already had more problems than I could cope with. I wasn't going to add a new one.

Is it really impossible for you to conceive of anyone identifying as something other than a human? How is that different than a man identifying as a woman or a woman identifying as a man? Why is that comparison so offensive to you?

gender.fandom.com/wiki/Lemongender

Asking 'What about being a woman is resonating for you?' is affirming that the man's false belief is true. So it's not asking the right question.

You didn't phrase this as an idea or a belief. You're question was not objective and it could very much lead to them thinking you agree with their perception.

Agreed ⬆️

It's a word invented by fascists and chanted by their zombie army in an effort to enforced their unilateral decree 'No Debate'. The Gender Identity ideology, of which 'trans' is just a small part, is batshit crazy, and criticising it and pointing out why it's batshit crazy is not 'phobic' or hateful, it's necessary, because the ideology is BATSHIT CRAZY.

I have not called you "vile" (or "bile", which doesn't even make sense). I have referred to that language, the language that is being used against us, in posts to you because this is part of the bigger scenario in which your "just be kind" position falls, so while you might not see how it is relevant to you, it is relevant to why people may not agree with your position.

I'm wrong to personalize things, and you're right that I have no idea who you talk to or about what. So it's not about "you" being part of the problem.

But I don't think you're right when you say "it doesn't lead them to think anything." If just talking it out never changed how people feel then there'd be no point in doing it. The Socratic method of teaching is at root just asking questions, albeit leading questions, to get the student to form their own (correct) conclusions and in some sense teach themselves the truth. It's absolutely possible for what someone might describe as "giving space to examine feelings" to affirm a lot of untrue things in someone's head.

No it’s not. It’s then a way into examining if these are gender ideals or perceived things that aren’t true or something else.

I don't have a "just be kind" position. I have literally never said you need to use preferred pronouns to be kind/polite/respectful or anything else. I simply don't care whether you do, or don't use them.

I'm not trying to convince people of my position. They are entitled to their opinion as am I.

Truthfully it's an ambiguous question.

What about being a woman is resonating for you?
What about you being a woman is resonating for you?
What about the fact of you being a woman is resonating for you?
What about the concept of someone being a woman is resonating for you?

Yes it’s very ambiguous. It’s hard to be open ended non judgemental and encouraging as obviously when people share (and you’d be surprised how many men we hear from as well as women). Most will shut down if you say even something slightly non supportive. It’s definitely a challenge and a barrier

Agreed, shouldn't it be something stronger like 'What makes you think you're a women considering your actually a man', the above questions seem a bit wishy washy to me.