feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

What? 🤔

The basis for rational debate is engagement with points and the clarification and illustration of those points.

You are back to throwing out emotive words sich 'obsession', 'bile', 'hatred' when you find it difficult to explain your thinking in more detailed ways.

You are engaging with some very well educated and intelligent people here - who know their stuff. Perhaps you should engage in a bit more thorough research and evaluation before you post?

Nobody is going to object, otherwise they will lose their friends, jobs, be outed online.

I mean, I have no idea how many fucking times we have to say this but that's the fucking point of the issue.

But when the same question is evaded by many different posters on multiple threads over a period of years, it begins to look less like their choice and more like the answer either not existing at all, or being an inconvenient one that doesn't help their case.

This.

That's bad faith and you know it. If we are talking exclusively about pronouns and I finish the sentence on pronouns by saying people are free to do what they want, it is clear I am saying that in respect to pronouns, not rape/murder or some other crazy shit. For fuck sake, I'm not saying people can go out and stab each other.

That fact that you are so intellectually dishonest says a lot about you.

I agree; and such hounding and silencing is facilitated by dishonestly labelling any such objections as "transphobic".

I agree we have a liberal dress code and most people don't give a fuck how others dress.

However I have encountered issues as a female - and I don't wear revealing clothes - just have large breasts - so 11 in primary uniform harrisment from men sadly wasn't unkown - and I was in no way dressing for attention.

I remember seeing a channel 4 interview with transwomen wearing the most tight and revealing clothing complaining men in clubs grabbed them and people in public made sexual comments. What wasn't pointed out that it was men doing this poor behavior. Then they went on to say no-one had it as hard as them or understood what if felt like - because clearly the female population who also suffer this regularly don't exist. The potentail shared ground was blow away.

Same with thrid spaces or mixed sex facilities. There was potentail common ground with parents - who have both sex of kids or opposite to them - but third spaces were shouted down. I'm aware of women with reglious constraints and obvioulsy rape victim and even teen girls needs or some protection against voyeurism - but all that been shouted down in favour of one small group needs of valifation. Evdidence that mix sex changing rooms saw more crimes committed gets ignored as it's not what this small vocal powerful group with media ear wants to hear. Some of the mixed sex provision we've encountered has been so poor we don't go back - it has a hidden economic impact in businesses that also gets ignored.

Still it's hard to fathom why Brighton decided there couldn't be a female only rape groups a decision that had to be challeged ( and paid for ) in courts.

I think the reason many of us are so passionate about this is because we were the cohort who grew up as gender non-conforming girls. We know it wouldn't have helped us to be told maybe we were boys trapped in the wrong body. It would have added to our confusion about why we weren't interested in traditionally feminine things.

Yes, this is it exactly.

Which is why it is so frustrating to have so many "oh I don't know much about it but have you considered/ why do you..." type posts from posters who seem to think it's reasonable not to bother with a couple of searches to see what has already been said.

Especially when they claim to "not really know much about it" yet somehow also know exactly where to post and what questions to ask.

I won't say it's necessary bad faith, but it is unbelievably arrogant.

Transwomen experience violence at higher rates than women because transwomen are men. All men are vastly more likely to be victims of and perpetrators of violence than women.
Furthermore, transgender people are significantly less likely to be murdered than the rest of the population, but are more likely to murder others.

On what basis do you assume they're more vulnerable?

Thank you. My point was simply that people can choose to use preferred pronouns in casual conversations if they wish to. I didn’t expect that to be so controversial. It sometimes feels like even a tiny difference in opinion can lead to to you getting crucified on this forum. No wonder a lot of gender critical women hate it here.

• for Slightyamusedandsilly who seems to have difficulty understanding my posts, the word crucified in this sentence is a metaphor. It is symbolic, not literal. I am not literally saying that people have put me on a cross and executed me.

where we would have a different opinion on the above is that I don’t feel it’s impolite or disrespectful to refuse to go along with a fallacy. I don’t want to feel ‘forced’ to validate someone’s belief (delusion) in the name of being kind and polite and respectful.

The argument I have heard (which I do not agree with btw)...

The important part is in bold.

Fair enough. I'm sorry I didn't read carefully enough

But what if it is, in part, the cause of their issue? I know no trans identifying person wants to hear this, but (and this genuinely comes from a place of compassion, not hatred) - my view is that being convinced you are ‘in the wrong body’ / are somehow the ‘wrong’ sex IS a mental illness, and that the way to treat that is to treat the underlying mental illness (which I accept could have a multitude of different complex underlying causes), not to validate the ‘belief’. I don’t think there are two separate things - i.e. someone identifies as trans AND has some form of mental ill health, I think they are completely intertwined. In exactly the same way that we recognise that people who for example suffer from anorexia nervosa are convinced they are fat - we don’t treat that by validating that body dysmorphia, we recognise that they have body dysmorphia and need to treat the mental illness.

Summary that someone has produced of the recent Finnish study:

GD = gender dysphoria
GR = gender reassignment (hormones/surgery)

Researchers' conclusions (my bold):
Severe psychiatric morbidity is common among gender-referred adolescents and appears to be more prevalent in those referred after the recent surge in referrals.
Psychiatric needs do not subside after medical gender reassignment.

Yes, in the same way that people can chose to be sexist or racist in casual conversations.

However, they can't expect no one to point out they are being sexist or racist, or to think less of them because of it, and they can't expect to use words like "vile" or "bile" against people who don't chose to be sexist or racist and not have those people defend themselves.

People are not free to 'do what they want', though; and that includes pronouns. Pronouns mean nothing if other people don't or won't use them. The whole trans identity relies on the co-operation of other people and society at large. You cannot 'be whoever you want' if other people don't recognise you as what you say you are.

I'm not dishonest, but i do think you are vague and woolly and not in full command of your own argument.

Missing image:

I'm not having a go at anyone here, just making observations.

But I don't think we can choose to use preferred pronouns as and when it suits us, and not cause problems eventually.

How can a friendship group work if someone is called he and she by different people? At work, if its seen as politeness, will people be disadvantaged by being seen as impolite?

Just by suggesting that they would like to be referred to by preferred pronouns puts everyone else in a spot. Its suddenly team trans or teams terf even if there's an unspoken rule not to talk about it. Its like your boss giving you the option of putting a EU flag in your email.

Trans people and allies are being very manipulative even suggesting it. It is changing language, forcing people to take a side, makes people feel awkward and worried that they make mistakes. All to make them feels happier? What about everyone else.

Ive already explained in this context why I feel it is.

Idk if someone tells me they’re in pain or suffering and I say don’t be so blood daft I think that’s highly problematic. What the solution is idk and I don’t pretend to have the answers but I don’t think mocking ever works in poor well-being

Cool then don't use preferred pronouns, I'm not saying you have to. Each person can choose to use preferred pronouns or not in casual conversation. It is their choice.

It that clear enough for you

I agree.

There really is a dissonance in someone choosing who does and doesn't 'deserve' to have their language demands accepted. When you try to think of what other group you (general 'you') change your language for to suit their belief about themselves that is purely subjective and not reflective of material reality at all, I cannot think of a comparison.

Yet, this scenario always seems to be different. Like for some people, you (general you), act as if the impossible is possible but not for others. Yet, the impossible remains impossible.

I had no idea what you are saying here. You are also the second person who has posted a response to me with the words "vile" and "bile" which is super weird as I have never called anyone on here those words. Are you saying I'm vile and bile?