feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

And the rights of others.

Quite and there was a time not that long ago when preferred pronouns were compelled speech.

It’s in the who’s more obsessed thread jkr or tras. I cba to search through the entire thread but I remember seeing it there

That’s not ok either and that’s what I was trying to say. I don’t think anyone should do it. I don’t like myself when I do it, it doesn’t make me feel good, so I don’t get involved.

i don’t believe in mocking anyone’s pain or suffering. That’s my values in this world

This and the “my poor daughter has sobbed all night because no one wants to share a room with her on the school holiday”..

I feel I have what are often considered gender critical views, but certainly not by the standards of this forum!

100% agree. I was permanently banned from reddit for my gender critical beliefs and I come here and am pretty much accused of being a TRA. Seems you can't win.

I share your concern for people who experience alienation from the reality of their biological sex. If gender dysphoria exists - I know it is a contested term - I had it as a child, and I was so unhappy about growing up to be an adult human female that I considered suicide when I was about 10 or 11.

The way to be caring and supportive of people with that kind of distress is not to pretend to them that they can forget about their actual biological sex and become the opposite sex - this is what is wrong with the 'Transwomen are women' slogan - it gives false hope to the kind of people you are referring to.

It is not #bekind to encourage people to believe that if they take hormones or p wear different clothes or have surgery, that will solve their problem and salve their distress.
It the caring and supportive thing to do is to help them accept their own bodies for what they are, to reject the damaging idea that they were 'born in the wrong body' - nobody is! - and that by making some changes, some of which are damaging to their health, the general public will start seeing them as members of their preferred sex.

I was so lucky that nobody offered me puberty blockers, hormones, preferred pronouns, gender neutral toilets, surgery when I was a young girl. It's scary to think what road I might have gone down.

I was lucky that nobody thought it would #bekind to encourage me to think that I was not female and would not grow up to be an adult human female.
So I eventually made peace with who I was, what I was, what sex I had been born into, and grew up as a gender-non-conforming woman.

The truth, and loving support to accept the truth, is the way to deal with the distress of feeling alienated from your own body.

There are people who have genuine distress that they were not born different for many reasons.

Again, why is the impossible belief you are/should have been the opposite sex somehow more "real" than these other genuine yearnings?

I agree, and the reason why is you haven’t said mocking their pain is the answer in this too, so clearly you agree with me

FWIW I think there have been a few crossed wires from people reading your posts.

Im not saying it is. Im saying mocking any pain is distasteful and not something I like to partake in due to my moral reasons. Which I think is due to growing up in a culture that drums tolerance into you from a young age.

Because there is no obligation. Obsession isn't a good basis for a rational debate.

I've just seen your post, Heggettypeg, and it illustrates what I said in mine about the truth being kinder than going along with transgender identities.

A biological boy who thinks he is a girl, and should therefore be able to join in girl-only activities, does not need to be told he is a lovely lovely daughter who is being hated on by transphobic bigots.

He needs to be helped, in a loving and supportive way, to accept the truth: that he was born male, and always will be male, he is a boy, and how can we help you be a happier boy? how can we support you to be a brave boy who doesn't feel he has to be a rats and snails and puppy-dogs' tails kind of boy, but whatever kind of boy you want to be, and grow up to be whatever kind of man you want to be?

The truth that I was going to grow up to be a woman was difficult for me to accept, but believe me, living as your true self, at one with the body you were born into, is a lot easier than a lifetime of simulation and/or medication.

Yeah, that’s not the reason they are never answered. And everyone knows it.

Well, I wouldn't call objecting to visible frilly knickers at work "transphobia".
I would call it "objecting to unprofessional behaviour" (on the part of the employee) and possibly also "objecting to favouritism" ( on the part of the employer, if they wouldn't let other, not-trans, employees get away with showing their knickers too).

Sorry @PeachyDaisy if you getting a hard time, so many people come here claiming to be someone they're not.

Ive just reread that thread and nobody says anything close to "this is just fashionable and being pushed by gays"’ - unless you're referring to the post from which the below is extracted

Where I think the issue is is the actions of the allies i.e gay men and the charities that were initially for same-sex people but have tried to apply the same tactics for transgender people in order to make money.

How surprising.

Because there is no obligation.

Or because there are no answers 😘

Who is suggesting mocking anyone?

The "lemon" analogy is not mocking, it's taking the underlying scenario of believing one is something that one is not to an extreme to draw out the underlying thinking, assumptions or prejudices that are at play that cause one to judge the "reasonable" scenario with different values to the "unreasonable" one.

It is a really valuable technique for critical thinking. It helps you recognise comsciously when one's inner subconscious policeman is stepping in to stop a line of thought and allows you to think consciously about why.

No there’s no obligation. However, if people state that TWANW yet also argue for their inclusion in women’s toilets, then it’s reasonable to ask on what basis. If people argue TW aren’t a threat to women ‘because they aren’t heterosexual’, then it’s reasonable to ask why we don’t allow all non-heterosexual men access to female-only spaces. If people argue for particular ‘rights’ for TW, then it’s reasonable to ask how are TW being defined. If people can’t, or won’t, help others understand their position by refusing to answer those type of questions, then it’s reasonable for others to draw their own conclusions.

Well, from my experience 'Don't be so daft of course you're not a boy!' is a lot less damaging than 'The transphobic bigots are all out to get you, my darling son'.

I share with you an unwillingness to mock people to their faces, but I think there's a value in pointing out the truth that, for instance, men who think they have become women and would blend in in the women's toilets are often so obviously and blatantlywrong that it's ridiculous that they don't see that.

I wouldn't say that to their faces - I'm too nice to do sobut I'd be scared of their reaction, too - but stating in an objective, possibly at times mocking, way that it is usually very easy to spot that a man dressed in women's clothes is a man dressed up in women's clothes.

In other words, the cure for distress is not to try to be a woman, because that's setting your sights on an impossibility. People referring to transwomen by a woman's name and she/her, even getting a gender recognition cert - all this is a tangled web around the truth: transwomen are men because humans can't change sex.

Having lived through what I experienced as a child, I am particularly keen for children to be told the truth about sex being binary and immutable from the very start, so they don't develop mistaken ideas of being able to 'transition' if they are unhappy about their bodies.

Are you conflating "Stonewall jumped on the trans bandwagon after equal marriage was legalised because it needed a new campaign to justify its fundraising"
With
"Is being pushed by the gays", @mattala ?

Because the concept of gender identity is deeply homophobic and leads to lesbian events being attended men cosplaying at beginning women, while actual lesbians are called "genital fetishists" for being same sex attracted.

I do think it is fair and reasonable to mock to ridiculous. A late middle aged bloke declaring he's a lesbian in "girl mode" is both ludicrous (because it's untrue) and deeply offensive to actual women.
"Don't be so bloody daft" is a legitimate response to that.

That is a world away from scared, traumatised and frequently autistic teenage girl trying to escape the oppressive gendered expectations of their porn-addled society. They deserve our help and support.

To be fair there is no difference between either of these and a man without a trans identity. They’re all men and should be treated as such, whatever they are wearing.

Your post suggested that " people can do whatever they want". Read it back.

We've been here before....where I take you up on a point or comment you have made, and then you evade questions or requests for clarification in relation to it.