feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Great post @Catiette

Slightly surprised at claims regarding 'genuine trans people' (my quotes)
Who decides this? Could be construed as 'transphobia'
Are we talking about the 'old-school' transexuals: they were relatively small in number; until the men who cross-dressed in the privacy of their homes, began to appear in public stating they were now "women". How on earth do you tell the difference?
As for 'most TW know that they are men'. Many TW are utterly and totally convinced they are women and state the cross-sex hormones have completely changed their biology!

The umbrella expanded massively

Posters on this board are in the main, ready for people who arrive spouting "transphobes" " hate" and are more than up for robust discussion.
I have seen comments that TW need women's spaces for dignity- where's the dignity for women there? I have seen comments that TW are unsafe in men's loos- where is the evidence?

If you see 'transphobia' or 'hate' please, please report to MNHQ: they're pretty hot on deletion.
I haven't seen bullying- just strong replies from people (usually women but sometimes men) defending the rights of women to have spaces and services (any spaces and any services) away from men however they identify.
Many women thought the opposite view until they read around the subject or had some experiences. Peaking?

And many of us have transpeople in our lives; we simply understand you cannot change sex.

I think the category ‘trans people’ isn’t a helpful one beyond capturing that all people in this category consider themselves to have a gender identity that doesn’t align with their sex. The group includes males, females, children, pensioners, criminals, recluses, extroverts, academics, plumbers…..the list is endless.

When people take issue (rationally or irrationally) with ‘trans people’, it is rarely to do with their personal experiences of identity (which is often the only thing different trans people have in common), it’s to do with societal expectations and laws and usually boils down to which categories should be applied to given situations and inclusion and exclusion criteria for categories.

Transphobia is a problematic framing to give to someone who argues for sex categories and for inclusion/ exclusion to these categories to be based on sex. If this the case, someone arguing to replace sex categories them with gender identity based categories are misogynistic or misandrist.

It is also problematic to align using sex based pronouns with using racial slurs. The equivalent would to be to use trans specific slurs like t*n. It definitely causes upset to trans people, and could therefore be deemed harmful, but this has to be understood alongside the upset/ harms using them can cause the speaker. If some one relished using sex based pronouns because of the hurt/ upset it caused, perhaps this could be a sign of transphobia, but I think most users of sex based pronouns would love their use age to not upset anyone.

A key concern I have with misconstruing non-transphobic behaviour with transphobia is the harm that is causes people with trans identities. They are guided to feel a lot of unnecessary fear and hurt. Why not tell them, ‘some people think natal sex is a more important categorisation system then gender identity and as a result will use sex based not gender based pronouns. Think of this as similar to people asking you to call them by their title and surname not first name. This doesn’t tell you anything about whether they like or value you as a person, so don’t be put off by it’. Clearly, this sort of advice would not work with any kind of slur or insult - which provides support for the argument that sex based pronoun use isn’t inherently transphobic.

Can you explain to me how me thinking a man can present as he chooses but cannot change his sex is mocking? I’m really interested and asking genuinely.

I don’t give a chuff how anyone dresses or presents. I really really don’t care.

i do care that single sex spaces remain single sex.

I don’t think I’ve ever mocked anyone. But I’m interested in how my position is perceived.

What if they were fully covered but in a professional women's dress with long hair and makeup? I'm not judging you, I'm just trying to work out if it is the revealing clothes you object to or if it is the fact that it is a man in a dress?

"Lies"?

I did not say the word "forced". I said "deserved".

I am talking about your choice to use preferred language, and the implications of that choice.

You are free to make your own choices.

You are free to ignore the wider implications of the choices you make.

You are even free to use words like "bigot", "hater", "transphobe", "vile" or "bile" when people point those implications out anyway. (Well, free within the bounds of not harassing people with protected beliefs anyway)

But you are not free to deny others from recognising those implications and pointing them out.

That stance isn’t mocking.
imagine if it was someone who was talking about their real pain and you went and compared it to something trivial and silly.
i view it like that but I can see how it can be intended to illustrate a point. But I think it’s closer to mocking than proving anything effectively because everyone knows you can’t just be a lemon

Most people simply don't care, or "object" that much when they see a man presenting himself as a woman......even if they obviously note it. They just think " there is another bloke who wants people to see him as a woman, even though we can all see he is a man". Obviously, though, if he's wearing inappropriately sexualised clothing in a public place then people will most likey disapprove of that, for reasons of public propriety. I fairly frequently see such men around in my city.

Beyond that the issue is not about what a man wears when he goees out in public, but what he is expecting from members of the public when he does that. If his purpose is furtive, exhibitionistic or attention seeking, or if he introduces himself as a woman, using 'she' pronouns - then this is where the issues really do become more complex and problematical.

Sorry are you saying there that I’m not mocking?

Again more lies. I never called people who choose not to use preferred pronouns "bigot", "hater", "transphobe", "vile" or "bile". I said it is perfectly fine to choose not to use preferred pronouns. I don't care in the slightest whether you do or don't. Doesn't make you bigot not to use preferred pronouns.

Everyone is free to do what they want. If you want to call me names because I use preferred pronouns, then you can go ahead.

To be fair, you didn’t say that in your first post.

I do appreciate your clarification though. Thank you.

The objection is to men claiming to be women....not their clothing, essentially.

I haven’t accused anyone personally of mocking no. But I have seen this trope - along with ‘this is just fashionable and being pushed by gays’ - which I do view as mocking and trivialising real issues that people face. It’s easy to forget that there are people reading this who face real issues. They didn’t make rape threats. So I’m not going to mock them because of a few awful people that did

Everybody is not free to do whatever they want. There are rules, laws and standards of conduct that we are all expected to abide by.

100%

The fact that women can ‘dress like men’ and not be ridiculed, yet men are ridiculed for ‘dressing like women’ is a a window to the misogyny that is rife throughout society. Of course women would want to emulate men, men wanting to appear like women are degrading themselves and deserve ridicule or sectioning.

This board is dominated by people who object to the idea that there are men’s clothes and women’s clothes and have no problem with males dressing in clothes sold as ‘for women’. There is objection to males wearing clothes that are sexually coded and female coded in places outside of their own homes and around consenting adults. This objection is based on not consenting to participation in fetishes, and has nothing to do with thinking money females should wear such clothing.

Have you seen the trope of it being pushed by the gays here on mumsnet?

Interestingly a lot of us started out prepared to 'be kind' but have ended up with extremely firm boundaries and red lines. Read the 'Pronouns are rohypnol' link above. Consider what we are agreeing to if we accept the idea that some men are women. The fact that 99 per cent of sex offenders are male got it into my leftie thick skull that there absolutely are differences between men and women and that there are separate male and female spaces for a very good reason.

Not often but yes in a few convos it’s been said and as a gay person that’s quite offensive

The questions are never answered

Agree, it wasn’t remotely like AI 🙄

So what about the people who have mocked and laughed at those who have disclosed horrific experiences? That has happened to me, here, on this board. And more than once.

I was actually told once that I shouldn’t share the details of my rape as it made others uncomfortable.

Travel's defeated me. Thanks to everyone continuing the lemongatedebate. Will catch up later.

What has that got to do with preferred pronouns, which is what we are talking about. There is no law saying that you are to use preferred pronouns in public, so yes you are free to use them or not

Can you link to any of the post on MN where this has been said? I've not come across that conversation here.

Pro tip - AI is pretty good at assessing whether something was written by AI or not.

Yes, and you can add to that, all the stories about "my lovely daughter" who is sad because "she" only wants to play sport/go to Brownies/whatever with the "other girls" and the bigots won't let "her".
Even when you know what the deal is, and that "she" is a boy, the emotional manipulation is at work. I've realised that by observing my own reactions. Mis-sexing is not a harmless practice.