feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Yes good idea 👍

Oh no the 'most marginalised' gets a mention. Again. And making their heart 'break'
Good grief

Except that is not an appropriate analogy. A more apposite one would be if someone told you their new name was your name - exactly your name, first, middle and surname. Because that is exactly what is happening when a bloke in a frock insists that he is a woman, and you must refer to him using female pronouns. He's barging into a space that is already occupied, and occupied by the rightful owners.

maybe you didn’t know that the poster being referred to has been on FWR now for weeks calling us bigots. And then it wasn’t just JKR he mentioned, it was all ‘bigots’.

ie. many of us who he has called bigots over the past few weeks on MN FWR consider ourselves included.

He has abused quite a few of us directly here too with name calling etc

Maybe you should actually take the time to read back this thread carefully. And if you don’t want others to insult you, why are you continuing to issue insults yourself?

Well next time he does it I’ll save the insults for him. I agree I shouldn’t be insulting anyone which was my point.

It's not the same.
Most people don't call transgender people the derogatory T word like the way they don't call black people the N word or gay people the F word

But people are not expected to refer to gay or black people as something that they are not.

What if they told you their new name was giraffezoo, because they associate being called giraffezoo with being faux confused, a little naive and that is how they see themselves too?

And because they, like you, are a giraffezoo, just as much of a giraffezoo as you, they get to have keys to your house, to drive your car, and have to be included on any nights out with your friends?

Would all that still be OK?

Again this is not the same.
It's one thing to go along with a name that you think it's silly, it's another to go along with someone saying that they have changed genders.

It's interesting that you say you are a long term lurker on this forum but yet you don't know why people may have an issue using the pronouns or why people bring up mental illness and instead reduce it to 'transphobia'.

I'm not a regular user at all, but occasionally see the posts and have a read and people are continuously and constantly explaining it in easy to understand ways.

I think this sums up where I am with this

Why is it deemed 'respectful and polite' to lie about someone's sex. Can someone explain?

'I’ve been harsssed enough by that ridícuous poster who should quite frankly be working for farage and tone policing everyone else'

That poster has been on this board for at least a decade that I remember, and I'm shit at remembering who posts what.

All she did was reflect your own words and ask you things. Mainly your word policing of women who call things the thing they are.

You went for her within a matter of hours.

And you invoke the boogy man 'farage' as some sort of 'she must be a far right winger' because...she reflects your own words back to you and asks you questions?

Yet we cannot call men 'men' in general. But you can insult someone specifically as call them an annoying wasp and basically infer they are far right and that's all fine?

Do you understand the concept of 'double standards'?

I'm going to try again to write a version of what I wrote yesterday that got my post deleted, but I'll try to write it better, in a way that explains my thoughts and feelings in a less aggressive way.

I don't care if people say or think I'm transphobic. Many women are called this simply for expressing their boundaries or just stating that they don't believe that people can change sex.

I will not use pronouns but I WILL use a person's preferred name. I believe incorrect pronouns can cause issues - others have already explained why in this thread.

What started as people, especially women trying to be kind has led to so much boundary pushing. Last year alone there were numerous court cases where women who didn't want to show their bodies to male people who identified as women had their livelihoods put as risk and were called hateful and transphobic. They were not hateful. They just wanted to not have to share what should be single sex facilities with those of the opposite sex. The supreme court agreed with them and yet still nothing has really changed.

Many women and girls have been disadvantaged just by trying to be kind.

Many young and impressionable people have become caught up in this and for some, there may be life long consequences as a result.

I don't consider myself transphobic for wanting womens rights to be upheld, or for not wanting our children to be put in situations where they believe impossible things that could cause them harm.

It's other people who may say that I am. That's on them. It won't change my mind about believing that sex is real and matters.

@mattala I don’t think to my knowledge I have ever mocked any transgender person on here. My stance is simple. Everyone should obey the law.

I’ve been mocked for that. I’ve even been laughed at on this thread, having disclosed my rape and SA.

what I’m not prepared to do is engage in “reframing” of any kind. The material reality is that people have two sexes and our language reflects this.

if my rapist decided to identify as female today, I will not be forced to talk about him as if he is a woman. I will not say “she raped me with her penis”.

that compelled speech would not be being kind to me.

i have been told before on here that I was playing trauma trumps and using my trauma to justify transphobia.

I’ve been told that my consent (or lack thereof) didn’t matter and what mattered was the man’s “internal cognition”.

and others. I can’t be bothered to go through and find them all. There’s loads.

but starting down the road of preferred pronouns is opening a door. How do we determine what man is really female? I don’t know. I can always tell a trans woman - it’s not about make up and dresses, it’s about frame, hand size, Adam’s apple, facial features, height, voice.

I need single sex spaces and im entitled to them in law. Why is it so hard for men to obey the law?

And someone called those court cases “persecution” 🙄

So if you had a friend who was size 8 and clearly had an eating disorder, and they told you they are fat and need to restrict their eating, presumably you’d think the kind thing to do would be to agree with them?

Im under 5ft tall, sometimes I wear kids clothes, age 11 is a good fit. If I said I was 11 and went to a nearby school and wanted to be in the class of 11 year olds, or play in the U13 sports tournaments, I would not be allowed. For safeguarding reasons, and because Im not 11

Im intrigued why sex is different from other attributes of ones make up, you cant identify as a different age, or race, and , in a sports like boxing you cant identify into a different weight category...

I'm gender critical but don't consider myself a feminist. As far as this issue goes I think you have to choose your battles. I don't mind using preferred pronouns as long as transwomen know that they are not legally entitled to enter women's spaces. Whether others wish to use preferred pronouns or not is up to them

So if my rapist decided to identify as a woman, I would be expected to say “she raped me”?

You are free to choose your own battles. You are not free to choose other people's for them.

plus. If you use the female pronouns for a ma , how can you protect women’s single sex spaces when a man can be referred to as she?

I give up. My autocorrect is on fire today.

I never said everyone had to choose their battles. I specifically said, people are free to use preferred pronouns if they wish. No one should be forced to use them.

I wish people would actually read peoples posts in full before jumping down their throats.

What was my last sentence? you obviously didn't read it as it said "Whether others wish to use preferred pronouns or not is up to them." Please read my full post before attacking what i say

So, if you were on a jury you'd be happy to deliberate whether or not 'she' was a rapist. And you would see no problem with that?