feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

I’ve said. The comments like I’ll be a shark or a lemon today. I don’t think it’s on the same level as rape threats but I do think it’s just mocking

It just made you look like a hypocrite.

And since when do regular posters on FWR post the way you just did? I would suggest that is a rather large over exaggeration that it made any point you were trying to make lost completely.

Well you don't appear to be arguing that they should be treated as any other men in terms of women's spaces, which is what the majority of women here think and want.

That's it. That's all.

So what are you arguing about?

I appreciate what you’re trying to say. That poster did piss me off and I did feel personally targeted. Every word and phrase was just dissected and I felt genuinely attacked and piled onto for very minor things I had raised. There were definitely better ways to deal with that.

Noting. That poster just kept quoting me and finding problems with everything I said and kept insulting me and dragging me into it. I genuinely think she just wanted an argument and I wss stupid enough to give her one. Learn from my mistakes people haha

And how is that even mocking when it is pointing out the impossible that it is just as impossible to be those things as it is for a male person to be a female person.

You consider it mocking, the people making that comment might be trying to make a point.

So, what else have women posted that you felt was so insulting that you needed to make these points? What you have argued here on this thread seems very disproportionate for merely making a comparison that you don’t like and you find insulting but is actually making a valid point.

The lemon thing isn't mocking anyone. I know that "lemon" is also a slang term for someone daft, but in this context that's very clearly not the meaning intended.

If I eat cat food, I don't become a cat. If I take testosterone, I don't become a man. The point is that we cannot change what species or sex we are by putting chemicals, whether food or hormones, into our bodies.

I’ve said my issues were with that particular poster. My issue is very mild in the grand scheme of things and I’d equally be asking you guys why you had such a strong reaction to it?

Again that isn't what was said.

Noone 'hates' trans people here. Many are concerned mums with trans identifying children. It is that an ideology that tells children they can change sex is a harmful lie.

And some harmful men will take advantage in a society that perpetuates this lie.

You are arguing with a ghost.

Some things deserve to be mocked and laughed at, even if they are actually very serious and bad at their core. It takes away fear of standing up against them as it takes away their power.

A good example of this is Spode in Jeeves and Wooster.

This.

When The Courier reported on Lennon/Katie Dolatowski's attempted rape of a 10 yr old girl, the newspaper used feminine pronouns for the sex offender, but included "But instead of being jailed at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court, Dolatowski, who identifies as a woman but was believed by her victim’s family to be a man, was given community payback and tagging orders."

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Perhaps because your posts came across as censuring and people responded to being censured as a group?

Did you really make a post just because some other posters at some moment in the past posted something about being a lemon or being a shark to highlight the impossibility of a man being a woman? And that was your one example of women being insulting? Surely there is more to this?

I am a feminist and I am also an ally to trans people, however they turn up. I am amazed about the amount of threads devoted to trans issues when in fact statistically it's an extremely small amount of people. These people are the most marginalized and I find the relentless nastiness, unnecessary and vile. Nothing a trans person has done has ever effected how I live my life and I don't think we have the right to pick them apart and what their motivations are about their gender identity. I think involving the trans community in conversation is much more productive than imposing our own opinions on them but honestly I don't think that some people here give a shit what is going on for them and would rather vilify than understand. Truly some of the threads here make my heart break.

Im not the op. I can’t even remember what the initial comment was but it was pretty mild, didn’t accuse anyone of hating trans people and didn’t in any way disagree with single sex spaces, and yet I was interrogated for expressing a mild opinion of what I had seen in the forums - some mocking behaviours. I then get told this is because of rape threats, which are very serious and I believe; which I don’t think excuses mocking a whole group: mock the perps by all means. That doesn’t make me an enemy yet I’ve been jumped on. I then said I see this behaviour a lot for even the mildest of criticisms, which I feel tone polices me. I then get one poster harsssing me and calling me a hypocrite and making stupid accusations. When I finally mock her back and police her for real, I get called an abuser. And I am mostly on your side. You couldn’t make it up. And this is why these boards have a bad reputation. Non conformers get slated

Absolutely. Gender identity ideology is toxic and absurd and laughing at it is liberating.

Do you think female people have the right to spaces just for them?

Please. Maybe go to bed and have a good kip.? I mean that genuinely. There's strong feelings here for good reason, but have a break and take it easy on yourself.

Some of the biggest victims of GII are detransitioners and people who modify their bodies and find that it made their life worse, but they have gone too far to be able to detransition.

What exactly is it do you think we don’t understand?

Good lord not another one...

If you are so concerned about the number of threads, could you at least read some of them before popping up and satisfying pretty much every bingo card we all hold in one post?

This is your first post, I think.

then came someone pointing out that we have over the past few days had a male poster who has been proud of his post about suggesting bigots such as JK Rowling who he called a nazi should be violently sexually assaulted and they asked whether it was ok to insult that poster.

You replied

“That’s morally disgusting too. but an eye for an eye and the world goes blind. I think the things some TRAs say are vile and I would never say the same back becuase I’m British and I like British laws about respect and tolerance.”

I read these posts of yours on this thread and I do think people responded because you came across as censuring and, to me, it does read you are telling women to be kind to a man who posted vile suggestions. (by the way, he has spent weeks telling us we are the bigots, and now we are in no doubt as to who he meant when he said such things, which cannot really be denied to be abusive to the female posters on MN who disagree with him on threads here).

You may not have intended to say that we should be kind to him, however I read it as you saying that. In fact you posted that we shouldn’t say nasty things to him.

you posted:

”Im not saying they are. Im just saying how does what they’re saying justify nasty comments back? It’s just my pov. I view respect as something I aspire to with everyone, if someone doesn’t show it to me I don’t retaliate I just remove access or disengage, it’s a very protective quality”

Again, you might not have intended it to be telling women to be kind to abusers, but that is how it could be interpreted. I think it is a fair interpretation and it is likely why you got the pushback you did.

“And this is why these boards have a bad reputation. Non conformers get slated.”

Please read my previous post. It is not your ‘non conformity’ getting slated, it is that you came across as censuring and telling women to be kind and not make nasty remarks, even when provoked.

I think claiming it was due to ‘non conformity’ as in this statement, can also be seen as hypocritical considering you were complaining about how some other people (from what I can work out on a very few instances) don’t act the way you think they should.

Claiming or wanting to be the other sex is either a mental health issue (as in most children and teenagers who do this) or a sex fetish (as in most adult trans-identifying men).

My view of male cross-dressing has changed massively. When I was young I saw it as a bold stance against sex stereotyping. How innocent I was!

The more transgenderism swept into power, the more clearly it became visible as a male supremacist movement.

I would now not want to have health treatment or anything else requiring close contact from a trans-identifying man, because he’s living out his sex fantasy. And, like so many women, I have had too much unwanted attention from sex-obsessed men.

I don’t have an employer, so I can safely refuse to use wrong-sex pronouns or make any other such deference without losing my job. But like every other woman, I am still at risk from aggression, loss of privacy etc, and the steady erosion of my single-sex rights.

Oh and how can you be an ally to an entire group of people 'however they turn up'?

Noone here is saying that an entire group of (trans) people are bad.

You on the other hand are saying that you accept anything from trans people because they declare themselves part of that group.

What if some of them 'turn up' as paedophilies? Okay because they're trans? However they turn up?

That's the double standard. Right there.

See I see myself as saying why I feel a certain way and not telling anyone to do anything. And then got tone policed for saying I don’t think someone threatening to rape jkr means be hateful back. I think given what he’s threatening to do her, it would be highly dangerous for her to go anywhere near him. Which then got completely taken out of context. I’m bored now I really am.
im not doing an enquiry. I’ve been harsssed enough by that ridícuous poster who should quite frankly be working for farage and tone policing everyone else