feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Like the others, you have to go back to my post and read it carefully. I said in law/administration a transwoman is a man for all purposes. That includes women's spaces (and trials). Anything legal/insitutional, transwoman=man.

Outside of that, in casual conversation if people want to use preferred pronouns then that is their choice. There is so much strawmanning on this board, it makes me not want to post as I know everything I write will be twisted to be something I didn't say.

You said
"I'm gender critical but don't consider myself a feminist. As far as this issue goes I think you have to choose your battles. I don't mind using preferred pronouns as long as transwomen know that they are not legally entitled to enter women's spaces."

Rather than "in law a transwoman is a man for all purposes" (my emphasis). You then indicated that the reason @Taztoy didn't have to say "she raped me" was because others could use what pronouns they wanted - rather than any reference to the transwoman position in law. This isn't strawmanning, this is reading what you actually wrote.

I understand you’re focusing on the pronouns part, but my key point was the legal distinction: in law, a transwoman is not automatically entitled to women’s spaces. The pronouns comment was about social courtesy. These are separate contexts.

If you want to ask for what I think about preferred pronouns it comes to a specific context, then ask. But don't assume I said something and extrapolate it to things I didn't even mention.

I hope this clears it up for you:

In legal or institutional contexts, a transwoman is a man.
In casual, social situations—like greeting a friend—you can use their preferred pronouns.

In law a man with a trans identity, even one with a GRC, is not at all/never entitled to use female only facilities or participate in female only categories. The recent ruling made this very clear, giving numerous examples.

'Courtesy' is a two way process and depends on reciprocity and respect. For many people false pronouns are an inherent sign of disrespect and the assertion of an individual's own desires. We don't own pronouns, they are a social currency and a tool for other people to name what they see or recognise.

As you very clearly understand (not just this poster), it obviously isn't. We're talking about the regular transphobia exhibited on MN.

But by all means continue to hound anyone that does not adhere to your three-line whip. God forbid anyone should dare to set foot in the Sex and Gender forum and disagree with you.

Just because you drive us away does not mean that you have achieved any kind of consensus. It just furthers your echo chamber.

Why are you telling me that? I already said in my original post that a transwoman should never use women's spaces.

It's been a deacde since I've been aware of the slow ersosion of women rights and access to services.

I think a lot of my sympthay in that time as services my family use - from unisex toillets we all hate teens to 70 year old both sexs when we go out - to bullshit kids have encountered at school - has slowly dissipated.

Women are 51% of the population still have issue getting same pay - same pensions and same access to health care - yet so much time and energy been in keeping the rights we already have not moving forward to equality caused by at most 1% of the population.

I don't hate trans people I just wish they stopped getting a disappropriate amount of media attention and other sections of the populations rights getting dimsissed in favour of a very vocal minority who seem extremely self centered.

I also see the very cycnical exploitation of vunerable teens but the movement and ignoring actual sceince and I think there should be some come back on the perpetrators.

Feminism is about women and their rights - all of which have had to be fought for nearly everywhere - last decade plus the trans movement has been one attacking existing rights and trying to sideline women from their own movement.

'Transphobia' as an accusation and device for shaming has lost its impact. Nobody here is afraid of that word. All it seems to refer to is the refusal to accept the truth or validity of 'gender identity' theory and the wider post modernistic set of theories it originated from.

That's fine. Just as long as you're also aware the non-contributors on this board aren't afraid of the bile. Just bored with the myopic focus of hate.

The post I responded to seemed to imply that there might be circumstances in which a trans identified man could use women only spaces ( "not automatically"). Try reading it back. If that is how i read your post, then that may well be how others read that post. It matters, because it is not true.

Is it actually possible to be a feminist but not uphold the rights of rape victims, domestic abuse survivors and anyone who doesn't feel comfortable being undressed in the presence of unknown males to have access to male-free spaces? Or does your trans-allyship have a caveat that you will always uphold the rights of trans people but that you will also uphold the rights of vulnerable female people when they need a male-free environment? Because my understanding of the two terms you claim to apply to you are incompatible and "feminism" that requires female people to set aside their own needs and wellbeing for the benefit of male people is illogic of the same level of ridiculousness as black=white and up=down.

We're talking about the regular transphobia exhibited on MN.

And what is this?

Examples please?

Because what I see is clarification that men can't become women. Clarification that womems right's to single sex spaces need to be upheld.

What is your problem with that?

Well you should go back to the post I made less than 10 minutes ago (in this same thread). A good lesson to ask instead of just assuming.

Which " bile"? Which "hate"?

Sounds like you are just trying to describe what you think 'transphobia' is by using other emotive words such as bile or hate. A rejection of trans ideology and a detailed analysis and a rejection of its claims is not 'bile' or 'hate'.

People can dip into a thread at any point, and so posters should be aware of that and each post therefore needs to be clear in itself. Did you not mean to imply that there could be occasions when a TIM could use a women only service or facility?

Yes you guys have them for me but not her. So she can call me a hypocrite police every word I say put words in mouth etc and when I say I feel harassed and do it back I’m every accusation under the sun?

professional goader seems like a good job imho

I expect pp felt the words “myopic focus of hate” would sound good to the few people on the forum who agree that men are women if they say so.

Literally. This. We say we don’t like a generic behavior we’ve seen. We get accused of saying things we’ve never said. The double standards are insane.

It looks like your opinions aren’t universally shared. That’s life.

God forbid anyone should dare to set foot in the Sex and Gender forum and disagree with you.

Oh I'd love some hearty disagreement. The problem is once we start to delve a little deeper the responses dry up. So we're no closer to understanding, for example, why some males should have access to places other males don't or how a 'transwoman' is being defined or how women identify the 'real transwomen' or various other things that are asserted with no evidence or basis in reality. Instead we get "you are mean transphobes and that's all I'm prepared to say".

We all know what you’ve said mattala - it’s right here on the thread for people to read and form their own opinions about.

I’ll take that as a backhanded compliment i guess

Yes I know they were dissected by many others last night 🫠