Daughter in early 20s lonely due to GC views

[Currentquandry]

My daughter is in her early twenties. She is GC and is struggling because so few of her peers have similar opinions. She is very lonely because of this. Are there any online groups she could join to give her a sense of community? She is also ND. Thank you in advance for your advice…

”they care about forcing trans people out of public life by making their participation in it as limited and difficult as possible - Helen Joyce's own words make this motivation quite explicit.”

If campaigning for better health care standards for children and for female single sex provisions to remain female single sex is to be characterised as ‘making life difficult’ for a group of male people who have demanded that their belief based in subjective reality that is not based on material reality, is treated by society as being material reality, it is then true to say that them getting all their demands met makes the lives of some
female people ‘limited and as difficult as possible’. If a group of people who make choices about rejecting the single sex provisions made for their use, based on the materially real sex category of their body, why is it then the responsibility for female people to have to prioritise that group’s demands over their own needs based on their female bodies?

Which other groups in society have been treated by society as if their beliefs about a subjective reality that don’t reflect material reality is materially real? Not treated as if the group don’t have that belief which would not be correct. But treated as if their belief that is only based on philosophical belief and not material reality, is material reality.

Well yeah women will recoil when they find out the “transwomen” they were so keen to include are not the delicate little flowers they were imagining, but males with all the male sense of entitlement, desires and attitudes held by any other male. They were probably thinking of the HSTS type of male with a trans identity, not people like Karen White, Katie Delowski or Barbie Kardashian.

No the transwomen might not even do anything but exist in the way they were told they should be able to by women who now find their presence inconvenient. If they existed in the background and didn't ever disagree or challenge anyone who isn't trans, then yes, they will be forever welcome. If they have their own unique perspectives and needs that are inconvenient to the most privileged women, then they will be expelled.

The women campaigning for their inclusion don't actually want to offer equal space, they just want to seem like equality and inclusion are important to them because it is fashionable.

I have to admit I simply don’t get it. If I take for example Jamie Wallis the first transgender MP. He stood in the Commons in his shirt and tie, an average bloke (who liked to cross dress). No one in their right mind would think it appropriate for him to swim in the Ladies pond. However, within the moment he self declared he was a TW, some think it would be absolutely fine. I struggle to make sense of it all.

Well yes, they will have perspectives and needs which challenge women’s perspectives and needs, because they are men. These women thought that males with all the trans identity would behave and feel just like women cos “TWAW”, then were all shocked pikachu face when they find out these men don’t want the same things women do and are not going to put women’s needs as any kind of priority. I’d call it naivety rather than stupidity.

A man who exposes his penis with intent to alarm or distress is a criminal (and flashing has been found to be a gateway crime to far far worse but that’s another conversation).

How do you propose we police the thoughts of every man who enters a female only space to stop this crime being committed?

Exactly. And there are PPs on this thread that criticise and call us names for objecting to him being in the women’s pond.

I think we all struggle to make sense of it because there is no sense, just men making unreasonable demands and some women supporting them.

Just like the women who fought against and tried to stop the suffragettes.

I don’t.

( sorry for the short reply. Am in bed eating chocolate eggs and don’t want to get chocolate on my phone! )

How is it ‘paternalistic’ if I said I would only feel comfortable using the female only pond if there are no men in there?

If your friends are so very keen to share their swimming with men, why can’t they use the designated mixed pond?

If men are in the ‘female only’ pond, there is no female only pond.

Because apparently, if a man just turns his back while getting changed, there can be no thrill (sexual or other type) he gets from the experience, innit.

It is like some people don’t actually listen to the very men they tell women they are ‘extreme’ for excluding. (There are enough telling us in videos and written content exactly what they feel when they are in a place that potentially distresses some female people) It is almost like they don’t understand male power moves either.

But then if you are in a position to tell women and girls that they should just reframe their trauma, or get over their trauma, and share a space where they are naked because that is progressive, I guess you must also be able to ignore all the other motivations male people have for being in a space with potentially traumatised female people. We know some people cannot see red flag safeguarding issues for multiple reasons.

Ok.

(Hope you are enjoying your chocolate).

So what is the outcome you are picturing here?

If we allow men to expose themselves to women in changing rooms, we can’t stop them having intent to alarm or distress (I can’t remember the exact wording for the crime) so do you accept that there is nothing to prevent crimes being committed or do you think men should be excluded from spaces where people are undressed?

Trans people haven't been banned from sports. As it's not true, it feels rather unkind to suggest that they have. Hopefully just a poor turn of phrase, but worth bearing in mind if kindness is important to you.

On the point of 'kindness', what do you think would be the kindest way to explain why transwomen are not welcome to participate in women's sports?

If you're able to frame it in a way that is universally agreed (including by TRAs) to be kind, that's great. Genuinely. Unfortunately, it's more likely that anything you say will be perceived as unkind by those who believe that TWAW, because in order to explain why TW aren't able to participate in women's sports, you'd need to refer to them being biological males... This is one small illustration of how difficult it will be to hold views that TWANW when trying to navigate friendship groups (which promote 'kindness' and inclusion etc) in that age group. Especially as the OP's daughter is ND - this cohort is particularly impacted by this enforced 'kindness' because of the large numbers of autistic females (mostly, but also males) who identify as either non-binary or the opposite sex.

As older adults, it's easier to navigate differing opinions. At that age, it's highly likely to lead to feeling and/or being ostracised. Quite the opposite of kindness.

Edited for typo.

'As for changing rooms and bathrooms, I think people should get over their hang ups on seeing other naked bodies'

My hang up is having been followed into the ladies by an old man in a wig and frock who then masturbated as I was in the stall. I mean I didnt see him naked.

You are aware transvestic fetishism is a paraphilia?

Sorry, I’m done with this thread. I gave it a lot of time yesterday and don’t really feel it was productive.

also, we’ve strayed a long way from the OP’s original question, which isn’t really fair.

im going to finish my chocolate and coffee and go to the gym.

have a good day.

Quite. It’s almost like we are racing backwards with our understanding of male criminal behaviour, especially around preventing sex crimes.

And women and children will suffer.

It’s always when the difficult questions turn up isn’t it…..

No worries, I know it’s a tricky question that proponents of men in women’s spaces generally prefer not to answer so I’ll leave it there.

Have a good day.

Tedious, not difficult.

Also, if I felt this was a genuine discussion perhaps I’d invest more of my time.

but it feels like you’re all very entrenched in your opinions so I won’t bother.

Honestly, 45 minutes on the treadmill is better than this.

The point is that these women, who are currently fighting for the inclusion of trans women, will turn on them if their need challenge theirs. No, not because they are men, but because it is their pattern when they feel challenged. Like Black women, we are welcome and included in female spaces until our Blackness becomes obstructive.

That will be the same for trans women. The same women who now say trans women are women and should be equally included in fenale spaces will turn on them when they have needs that arent in alignment with the most socially powerful women. It isn't about real inclusion or equality. It's performative.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you are expected to have gotten over that trauma, Arabella. That seems to be the level we are now at.

If your trauma means a male person rejecting the single sex provision for his sex category cannot access the female single sex provision, we should remove all single sex provisions ideally so that that group of provision rejecting male people can have an easy life.

Discussions about Love and Kindness and Tolerance seem all shiny and exhilirating on the surface, but when you get into the actual nitty gritty of women's rights and safeguarding, and the fine detail of balancing competing rights, based on data and evidence, its a bit more prosaic and hard work.

Its not even the trauma though? Its the awareness of that paraphilia based on personal lived experience. Supposed to just pretend it doesnt happen, I suppose.

I imagine it is when the extent of your thinking on this was 'be kind', 'get over your hang ups' and 'reframe your trauma'. Then when the real and actual consequences of that thinking is explained and the implications for women and girls made clear it becomes simply too tedious to think about.

“Tedious” even. 🙄

Maybe some women miss the very obvious answer - stop trying to ‘be kind’ to men who want to be in women’s spaces and just say no to them. We then solve a whole raft of problems and actually, shock horror, consider women’s needs.

It is a genuine discussion.

Why do you believe women and girls should have to ‘get over’ trauma so that a group of male people who make a conscious choice to reject male single sex provisions instead of campaigning to make them safer for them to use, and who refuse to use alternative mix sex provisions, can have their self imposed limits supported and and easier life?

Why should women and girls who don’t have your experience of not caring if you are naked in a space with male people, or not caring if you see a male person’s penis you don’t want to see, have to suffer harm because you, personally, don’t experience harm and choose to ignore those women and girl’s voices?

How is it kind and tolerant to ignore the needs of those female people?