Why do leisure centres no longer provide single-sex changing rooms? Women’s Rights Network on the case…

[GreenEyedFeminist]

What is it with leisure centres? Why can’t they give us single-sex changing rooms? This WRN X thread lists some of the cases from this year - I bet there are more. I get why families want to share a changing rooms but surely they could design changing rooms that give women and children a bit of privacy and SAFETY as well as a few cubicles for families. 🤷🏻‍♀️

x.com/womensrightsnet/status/2038709414786453891?s=61&t=HeTVV02FVbA_mwnXH0ymWg

Has it ever occured to you that some behaviours seem to be innately more associated with males, and that no matter how much you protest this will not change? Why do you think that it is always males, over millennias of human history, who are the ones most prone to wars; to violent behaviour; to sexual abuse etc? Is it just because nobody has ever " taken them up" on the issue?

How does an individual man ( someone's husband, for example) " take it up" with a man who is a stranger to him and in a different part of the world? Since when has " taking things up" with people who are not reasonable - made them see reason? Bad or abusive behaviour has nothing to do with reasoned argument; in fact tends to be impervious to it.

You don't put your children in the way of known risks if you can avoid it. Certainly not until they are of a certain age.

If a man offends against a child in a public lavatory, surely it is the business of any decent man to defend that child? If it isn't, why isn't it?

That's fine in theory until a child is alone in a public bathroom/ changing facility with a harmful male. Then who's responsibility is it? It's highly unlikely someone harmful is going to do something while others are around. But when alone and with the opportunity and a reason to be there then you've a perfect storm.

Of course other men should step up and defend a child at risk and I do think a lot of men would step in. But if noone else is there then your argument falls apart. And that's why it's so important there are gender neutral options without taking away from female only spaces.

So then what do these mothers want? For their sons to be allowed in to female spaces even though that may make women and girls uncomfortable? Are the girls to be collateral damage, or is their comfort and dignity not worthy of respect?

Honestly, leisure centres are damned whatever they do. Given how many articles on Mumsnet in recent weeks have been people deciding that the glance they got of a boy for 30 seconds gives them the right to complain that he went into women's changing rooms, despite the fact they have no idea of his real age, his ability to be safe, not to mention actually change alone, I have every sympathy for places that would rather have one changing room for everyone, than have to cope with complains that they know they don't know about to make judgements on. I honestly think, if I worked for a leisure centre, I'd rather have one change room and be done with it.

So women lose out because of men? Instead of men doing work, women lose out and that’s seen as ok cos it’s only women and girls right?

Then of course, there's the people that can't stand the idea of a man in a woman's toilet, and those that freak out if their daughter sees willies, because she goes in the toilet with her dad. Places can't win...

On this basis no child should ever be allowed to go anywhere without a protector riding shotgun. (Poor kids.) But.... Supposing the child is in a public convenience intended for females only and a man comes in, is the mother supposed to be better able to fight off that potential predator because it is a ladies' and not a gents'?

In any case, that there are nasty men does not justify males (however dressed) barging into females' public lavatories and changing rooms. If anything it makes it even more important that males should be excluded from places where a little girl may be on her own (remember Katie Dolatowski?) And males can reasonably include ones under the age of eighteen, or even ten.

I mean being one of these mothers I've already answered this - an option for gender neutral provision as well as female only provision so people can choose. In the likes of a leisure centre or a new build area there is no reason why this couldn't be accommodated. Then people can use what they need. Obviously it can't come at the expense of female only spaces but if we push for both rather than the status quo of two separate gender specific utilities then that creates options for people to use as they need to. Making life much easier for single parents or parents of vulnerable children/ adults who would require additional support etc

You do know that women are a great deal more likely to be sexually assaulted in mixed changing areas than women-only ones, obviously.

What exactly is the 'work' you are expecting men to do? And how exactly do you see that 'work' happening overnight?

I for one work in the field of educating young men on these issues and I would say hopefully we will eventually see a generational shift coming through with consistent work being done. But you are talking YEARS down the line for that sort of progress. So I think we do need interim measures in place to support people in the meantime while that happens in the background. I wish we lived in a society where we could just hand it over to men and it be dealt with immediately but we all know that's not the reality so what's the point in talking like that's the set up we're working in?

"So women lose out because of men? Instead of men doing work, women lose out and that’s seen as ok cos it’s only women and girls right?"

No-one loses out which is far better than young or disabled children of both sexes who don't have a parent of the same sex to care for them loosing out.

Out of interest, discuss the design of a gender-neutral option. What is it about the design that is safer when no one is around?

It's safer if you are able to be there with your opposite gender child so they aren't alone with a harmful male, or aren't going to become ill/ have a seizure/ be unable to properly dry and dress themselves alone in the male changing room because their female care giver cant be there? I mean I'd have thought that was quite obvious.

If you feel less safe in a gender neutral option then use the female only one.

''If you feel less safe in a gender neutral option then use the female only one.''

Go back and read the title of the thread again.

"And that's why it's so important there are gender neutral options without taking away from female only spaces."

Go back and read my posts again.

You didn’t answer my question. Design-wise, as in the structure (doors, partitions, walls, entrances) is there anything different between the single sex changing area and the mixed sex changing area?

My experience when council sports facilities had single sex changing, the cubicles had curtains.
The two pools I used as a child, one had thin nylon like thin shower curtains that stopped about an adults knees, the other had thick PVC curtains that were so thick and stiff they neither opened or shut. They sort of hung like a big plastic flap with gaps down both sides.

Both pools eventually went to changing villages, with proper doors that actually locked shut, yes they did have teething issues with perverted individuals and did things to prevent people being able to stand on the bench and see over and extended the side panels to the floor. But it does mean you can talk to your child in the next cubicle.

I'd much rather have proper mixed sex cubicles with actual doors than return to single sex thats not enforced with half hearted curtains, that are so thin you could spit through them or so thick they don't actually move or meet the sides of the opening.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because this is different in every venue?

In a local gym I use the single sex changing rooms is one fully open plan communal room. No cubicles or curtains available.

In a swimming pool I used to use the single sex changing room was a range of cubicles with locks on the door and gaps top and bottom. Same as is in my local pool which has gender neutral changing.

In another I've used that is gender neutral it has a mix of cubicles with top/bottom open and floor to ceiling lockable options for changing.

What is the point you are trying to make?

The single sex changing rooms I have been in were one big room with benches, then a few cubicles with 20cm gaps below the door and partitions and space above the standard length door and partitions to the high ceiling.

The one Family room was an enclosed room by itself and a door almost down to the floor.

Blergh to curtains. Never been in a leisure centre with those.

@Lavender14 I was genuinely interested. There are lots of different designs as the last couple of posts show. Most of my work is on toilets. Mixed sex rooms are private and enclosed. Single sex cubicles aren’t always completely private and are healthier and safer because of it.

With changing rooms it’s different because you almost always have to have a floor gap. The cubicle would rot from the amount of chlorinated water than needs draining. However, the one family changing room I mentioned above had a sloping floor to a drain in the middle so was private.

There are various ways you can try and design-out crime and safeguard. I was wondering what designs you were comparing - whether it was like for like.

In a swimming pool I used to use the single sex changing room was a range of cubicles with locks on the door and gaps top and bottom. Same as is in my local pool which has gender neutral changing.

In another I've used that is gender neutral it has a mix of cubicles with top/bottom open and floor to ceiling lockable options for changing.
What is the point you are trying to make?

You have two different mixed sex changing options there with different risks. Because of the known problems with voyeurism, which is male behaviour, the temptation is to make changing room cubicles with floor to ceiling privacy. However, it’s difficult as I said before due to chlorinated water and also ventilation and cleaning are much easier with floor to door gaps so it is unusual for any design to be floor to ceiling in a swimming pool area.

So basically women have to put up with a huge amount of voyeurism in mixed sex changing rooms when there’s door gaps. However, if there’s no door gaps, it’s worse for health and safety for both sexes. These are the designs to tell your son to avoid if he has a choice, whether it’s mixed sex or single sex.

There’s subtle differences between changing rooms and toilet cubicles. Mixed sex toilet cubicles aren’t allowed to have door gaps, presumably because of voyeurism and discomfort. It seems bizarre we have mixed sex changing rooms where it ‘is allowed’ supposedly.

And the worst of it is, you'd hope that evidenced-based detail like this, as
@Keeptoiletssafe has often pointed out, would inform governemt decisions. Sadly, there seems little movement.

Presumably that's because of the frequency of children needing support with changing as opposed to toileting though? My 3 yo can use a toilet reasonably independently but would be unable to rinse/ wash/dry and dress himself without some help. Plus the length of time you'd expect a child to be in the facility - quick pee: 2 minutes, getting dried and changed is much longer. So a caregiver waiting outside isn't going to know that anything is wrong or go looking for a child for much longer. That will be even harder for children with additional vulnerabilities/ long or thick hair. And with the number of children using leisure centres for swimming lessons as well as trips out with family, that's a significant proportion of the leisure centres clientele who need support around changing specifically. It's unrealistic to expect there to be a caregiver of the same gender available in every case.

I completely understand the issues around voyeurism and its something I'm vigilant of when using village changing as well but young male victims unaccompanied in a quiet changing room are surely more at risk in some ways from harmful predatory male behaviour than an adult woman who will have different skills to deal with a horrible situation like that, or a child with a safe adult present who is more likely to know what to do in response as well as identifying what's happening in the first instance and able to articulate it to report or call for help. A child is unlikely to have the capacity at 7 or 8 to understand and respond safely. Plus the additional risk of it escalating from voyeurism to more violent hysical harm.

Not to minimise the impact of voyeurism in any way its a deeply intrusive and horrible thing to have to go through. I just think it's a difficult solve when you're factoring in children and vulnerable adults who have different needs than a non-vulnerable adult woman.

If I'm out by myself I'd always choose female only changing/ toilets but if I'm out with a male child then I'd be choosing village toilets/ changing for their benefit moreso than my own.

@Lavender14 I am glad you can see why I am talking about how the design is important. When people go on about ‘gender-neutral’ spaces it normally means full enclosure floor to ceiling. They don’t realise gaps are there for health and safety. When it is a private space in a mixed sex area it is vulnerable to misuse and the lack of any supervision leads to poorer safeguarding. Of course 100% of people in prison for voyeurism are men. Men film women and occasionally other men over and under the doors and partitions but this can be quite risky for getting caught. Hidden cameras (easier to set up in a private cubicle) seem to be preferred by more ‘professional’ career men like teachers, doctors and a politician, who I believe was filming men.

I do not know the designs of the changing rooms where the worst offences against women took place - if I were looking at designing out crime in changing rooms that’s where I would start. I would have expected, off the back of my toilet research, to be a more private design.

I am very much in favour of young boys accompanying their mums to toilet and changing room cubicles that have door gaps, particularly because of my research. Children, as well as cleaners, are the exceptions to the single sex rule. I am not in favour of adding more mixed sex (therefore private) toilet cubicles or rooms in public areas.

The changing villages that I use all started with a 10-15cm gap at the bottom of the panel between the cubicles as well as at the door.
Those have been amended with an additional panel going to the floor being added to prevent cameras being pushed underneath.

However the gaps have remained at the front on the corridor side, but it would need to be someone very brazen to push a camera under there when they are in the open and can be seen.

At the same time as adding the extra panel pieces the did a mix of half ceilings or rails above the end of the cubicle where the bench is. Preventing people being able to stand on the bench putting cameras over the top.