Why do leisure centres no longer provide single-sex changing rooms? Women’s Rights Network on the case…

[GreenEyedFeminist]

What is it with leisure centres? Why can’t they give us single-sex changing rooms? This WRN X thread lists some of the cases from this year - I bet there are more. I get why families want to share a changing rooms but surely they could design changing rooms that give women and children a bit of privacy and SAFETY as well as a few cubicles for families. 🤷🏻‍♀️

x.com/womensrightsnet/status/2038709414786453891?s=61&t=HeTVV02FVbA_mwnXH0ymWg

Who provides insurance for these leisure centres? Given the well-documented risk to women and girls could victims make a civil claim for compensation? A few large payouts might make mixed sex facilities less attractive.

Good point. I asked my local leisure centres if they’d considered the risk of sex predators when they rebuilt our pool with mixed changing (previously single-sex…). They said that Sport England recommended mixed changing and it was a Sport England design 🤷🏻‍♀️

Seperate male and female might make it safer for women and girls but surely it makes it much more unsafe for boys.

The changing villages make life easier for families.

Ooh, must have missed this thread previously.

I wouldn’t want to share any space, let alone a “bathroom” - meaning leisure centre changing room, showers or toilets - with anyone who harboured thoughts such as this.

At the cost of women and girls getting sexually assaulted, raped and filmed.
It is perfectly possible to have family facilities and single sex facilities.
Women and girls should not be thrown to the wolves for the convenience of families with small children or for the wants of men with special identities

Well said @Hoardasurass
And have to disagree about the danger to boys @Needspaceforlego, mums have always taken young boys into women's changing rooms and I have certainly never encountered any objection to this.
I'm not sure whether there's anything in law, but I have something in my head about eight being the age at which they should start to go into the men's changing room. You can talk to an eight year old about potential threats and how to respond to them.
I for one am grateful that the Women's Rights Network is doing the work on this. Thank you for sharing @GreenEyedFeminist
P.S. Does anyone else think @AidaP has a p3nis?

But if young boys are unsafe in male spaces, that is on men isn’t it? Why should women be disadvantaged because men commit evil acts. Maybe men need to work on themselves and make male spaces safe for all males.

So you expect 8 year old children to be able to respond to threats in a male space.
But adult women are unsafe and unable to respond to threats in a mixed space.

Stop and think that through.

Have you considered taking this up with men? Why should women and girls be made to feel uncomfortable because male spaces are perceived to be unsafe for young boys? Why not tell men they need to do better and change themselves? Surely the problem is men?

We’ve seen this argument before, using the fact that boys are potentially vulnerable in male spaces to justify opening up female spaces to men. It won’t wash. The solution is in the hands of men.
When my son started using the men’s toilets, I waited outside for him and periodically yelled “You OK”? until he asked me not to do that, it was embarrassing. Learning to safely negotiate these spaces is an important part of male socialisation.

I think there are threats to young boys. That’s why individual changing cubicles are not as safe. There’s a good reason that the Hampstead Health men’s pond changing room is a big communal space. It designs-out crime. Most men (whatever their orientation to anything) are good men and would intervene or fetch help if they saw a boy being assaulted. It prevents it happening in the first place because perpetrators don’t like real-life witnesses or the threat that they could be caught.

Toilet cubicles and rooms are known hot-spots for sex. That’s why in 2003, any activity thought to be sexual in a toilet open to the public, or a section of the public, was made illegal in a specific clause in the Sexual Offences Act. That was argued to be one for equality - it brought heterosexual sex in line with homosexual sex being illegal in a public toilet, that had been in place for decades.

There is no such law for changing rooms. In fact I was looking at the Hampstead Heath ponds Equality Impact Assessment on officially making all the ponds mixed sex yesterday and sighed when I saw that potential ‘improvements’ to mitigate any concerns that everything is mixed sex, seems to be to create more privacy.

Is this the same Hampstead Heath?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/dog-walkers-campaign-to-reclaim-hampstead-heath-from-gay-cruising-spot-b1215548.html

This is not to be homophobic. It is stating facts from evidence for safeguarding the vulnerable. I know from my toilet research that boys and young men have been targeted in toilets, however the most serious offences still are from men on women and girls. I have data eg. from U.K. railway station toilets, that confirms this. Keeping boys more visible is a particularly tricky safeguarding concern (because there’s also cruising and voyeurism to think about), its why young boys should go into toilets with their mothers and why fully enclosed unisex toilets are not the solution to ‘dads’ taking girls into toilets. The family changing rooms also should not be completely private enclosed rooms for health and safety.

Thats easy in toilets.
How easy is that when you are in a different area in a state of undress yourself?

It also goes the other way some Dads won't be comfortable leaving their 8 yo DD to go to ladies alone.

Then that is up to the dads to work out what to do isn’t it? Again, that is a thing for men to deal with.

Still a weak argument. People have safely dealt with such situations forever. Eight year old girls unsafe in women’s loos and changing rooms? Seriously?

Unless of course there are men in there. But you think that’s OK.

The mixed sex facilities I have used provide extremely private rooms for changing, showering, and toilets. The only thing communal about them are the lockers in the central area. They are much more private than the single sex facilities. I prefer them to a changing room where I am expected to change in front of other women and where the shower at most provides a flimsy curtain.

Real privacy is an improvement.

I think it's really important there are gender neutral options tbh. I think we need to have sections for male only, neutral, and female only. As a lone mother of a boy I'd be extremely uncomfortable sending him into a male changing room alone or male bathroom alone at only 7 or 8. I fully understand the concerns around gender neutral changing/ toilets and i think these need to be better designed with floor to ceiling cubicles and doors. Similarly for single mothers of sons with additional vulnerabilities it seems remiss in that respect to only provide single sex changing/toilets with accessible toilets in gender specific rooms.

People should have the range of options available so they can choose what suits their needs. What gets me is why things keep being built without proper effective consultation done beforehand so these things can be part of the design and planning process for things like leisure centres etc.

This is such a silly argument though. Do you really think men don't know they are the problem? Of course they do, and the ones who are the problem don't give a toss because the only thing that matters to them is getting their own needs met. So they are not going to change a system that benefits them. Similarly where do you find most baby changing stations if not in accessible loos (which is another argument in itself). Men are socialised to believe that children's toileting is a female responsibility. And then that it's the child's responsibility. Plus then you've lone parents like myself who don't have the luxury of relying on a man to advocate for their child. I have to do that on his behalf until he's old enough to do it himself. So you'll have to forgive me for not holding my breath while I wait for men to step up.

@AidaP do you realise you are perpetuating the negative image of transwomen? Do yourself and your fellow transwomen a favour and take a day off.

So men get a pass because “they just won’t do it”? Wow. Maybe we need to get men as a group todo better and deal with the “problem” men. Put the onus squarely on men. They need to step up and take ownership of their bad apples.

Yes, but most mothers would prefer to have their young son with them in such circumstances. If you are waiting for, or relying on, abusive male behaviours to change you will be waiting a long time.

Then the mothers need to take it up with men. I’m sick of men getting a pass because “they’ll never change” or “it’s too hard”. Once again women and girls are made to feel uncomfortable because it’s easier than getting men to change. Ever think this is deliberate on the part of men?

I agree, but that's a long term educative piece of work that will take time to do well. So what happens to children in the meantime then? Or do we just treat them as collateral damage while we wait? I completely agree men should be held accountable and should be stepping up but that's not going to happen overnight and is therefore no help for women with young sons who are vulnerable but too old to be in the ladies with them.

"Ever think this is deliberate on the part of men?" This is the whole point.

In reality, though, how exactly are women to "take it up with men"? Stand with placards outside men's toilets?

The important thing is, no men in women’s spaces. Most of this quibbling is merely distraction.