Poor Semenya

[RumNotRun]

https://news.sky.com/story/if-women-must-stop-competing-so-be-it-semenyas-rallying-cry-over-olympics-transgender-athlete-ban-13525463

He's fighting for women's dignity apparently. The article says nothing about the children he's fathered, whilst being a woman of course.

I was explaining the background for blueskies who was wondering about the context for subsequent comments.

I’m glad you realised that the post should be removed.

what I was trying to say is you can’t always simply apply western standards of femininity to determine sex

I’m a bit confused at the point you are making here. What ‘western standards of femininity’ do you think have been misapplied to judge the picture of 15 year old Semenya on p2 to be that of a male?

Are you suggesting we are wrong to point at that topless photo as evidence that no one, including Semenya himself, thought he was female?

Are you still suggesting that a 15 yr old African girl would have happily posed topless in boys swimming shorts? I may have misunderstood your point so please correct me if that is the case.

I don’t think blue skies was asking for you to explain

standards of femininity such as stature and attire, maybe hair in this instance

CS has chosen to stay with calling themselves female…don’t you know

nobody else asked for post to be removed so you don’t need to attempt to patronise me by saying “I’m glad you realised…”. Jesus - No one else asked for it to be taken down

I've only just noticed this.
'You all'?
All white people?
All MN users?
All white MN users?
All MN users on the S&G board?
All white MN users on the S&G board?

Who? Because if you meant any of those groups, that sort of sweeping comment is very insulting, and not true.

If anyone generalised about Black people in the same way, I'd be livid. But the comment would probably be deleted anyway.

Yay!

I do think much of the media, Semenya's team, and a whole bunch of activists really did a number on women over men with DSDs.

Plenty of women have been absolutely fuming that they were standing up for a masculine looking woman with naturally high testosterone, when it turns out he was a man all along, who almost certainly knew it from puberty.

are they though? If they have a mix of traits - for me the whole argument started because of the mis gendering - I think it should be respected that CS has decided to carry on with recognising herself as a women - where does it say CS knew she was a man from puberty? (To me it would be like finding out your adopted and then having to deny your adoptive parents are your parents)

I’m uncomfortable with all the claims here about knowing what CS labia looks like!!! That it’s a malformed scrotam - how can we know that???

what’s wrong in my eyes is that they were allowed to compete with raised testosterone levels

Caster Semanya didn't have raised testosterone levels he had completely normal male levels of testosterone.

Because it's typical of the DSD that he has, that genitalia might be mistaken as female and that the micropenis is mistaken for a larger clitoris. Furthermore at puberty it becomes obvious when testosterone kicks in that the person isn't female but male. I'm sorry if you find it distasteful, but that is what this DSD does to the body.
If you have ever seen a micropenis, it's easy to see how such mistakes are made.

I don’t think blue skies was asking for you to explain

Are you suggesting I need to be invited to speak?

standards of femininity such as stature and attire, maybe hair in this instance

What’s that got to do with the point about Semenya being topless in the photograph? We haven’t discussed his hair. Do you think he has a female hairstyle?

CS has chosen to stay with calling themselves female…don’t you know

So in answer to my question, you do think we are wrong to point at that topless photo as evidence that no one, including Semenya himself, thought he was female?

If he announces the truth he’d be made to return all the money given to him for his Olympic ‘wins’. It doesn’t mean he believes the lie though.

But we don’t know do we - that’s what I’m saying - there are an awful lot of claims

where does it say CS knew she was a man from puberty?

If you look at the picture of 15 year old Semenya topless in boys swimming shorts on page 2, does it look like he thought he was male or female at that point? Why would he dress like that if he thought he was a girl?

Nearly everywhere it says “raised” or “elevated”

I’m uncomfortable with all the claims here about knowing what CS labia looks like!!! That it’s a malformed scrotum - how can we know that???

CS hasn't got labia because he's a man.

His sex was wrongly observed at birth because his scrotum and micropenis looked like labia and a clitoris.

Ambiguous genitalia are seen in men with 5 a-RD.

Think of it not as misgendering but correctly sexing. And his testosterone levels where what they should be for a bloke. They weren't raised, they were normal.

But we do know what DSD he has, it's been published as others on this thread have said. If he had retired gracefully none of this would be known publicly.

There you go “boys swimming shorts”

Because they were pretending he was a woman with raised testosterone levels. He had a completely normal testosterone level for a man.

Even the level he was required to reduce his testosterone to if he wanted to continue to compete was in the male range.

Ah, so not really convinced then.

The specific DSD that Semenya has is one of the most common, and very well known amongst sports people. Precisely because their genitalia looks ambiguous and they get registered as female.

It's a micro penis which looks like a clitoris. It's not a mix of traits. It's a male trait that didn't form properly.

The condition is known colloquially as penis at 12, because, apparently, men get a second crack of the whip in terms of viralisation. If it doesn't work at birth, which it doesn't with this DSD, then they get a second chance at puberty. Hence '12'.

What doesn't happen is that they have a female puberty. No breasts, no periods, no female anatomy.

Personally it was watching one of the interviews linked to above that crystallised it for me. Semenya's coach called him he, Semenya himself said he thought girls were soft, and he was fairly sexist to be honest.

He might identify as a woman, but he certainly doesn't identify with them.

For good reason, as it turns out.

So they have talked about their external genitalia being a mis formed scrotam?

"Raised" if he was actually a woman.

Women's testosterone levels are much lower than men's.

When it was thought he was female, his testosterone levels were noted as than the female range, and actually aligned with the male range.

@Uglydumpling all this information is available online. I don't know why you don't just read about it.

Lol

I still don't get why the sympathy is all one way - all the handwringing for poor CS - no thought for all the women CS displaced.

CS knew he was male years ago and that makes him a lying, cheating scumbag.

Carrying on the pretence by calling him 'her' just muddies the water. He's not here to be offended fgs.

You don't play sport with your gender, but with your sexed body. No one cares what his 'gender' is, it's irrelevant.

Not sorry if that's 'unkind'.

Yes, because that's what occurs in men with his DSD.

Yeah not really…because when you google everything says she’s a women!!!! I’m not saying she is I’m saying she has chosen to stick with that she is a women as thought she was for almost half her life

I agree with the new ruling and that they should never have been able to compete in women’s class

she Says she has a vagina though

It's the whole 'it's a woman with PCOS!' bullshite gambit. I have PCOS. I have raised testosterone which, although higher than the female average, is still nowhere near even the lowest possible male range. If I was at the level which males are requested to reduce to in an absurd argument that it makes them 'more female', I would be very ill indeed. Even as it is, I suffer health issues due to my condition.