Adult daughter dating trans-identified male, struggling to navigate family concerns

[BlueLegume]

Good morning all. I am normally rooted over on the Elderly parents threads. Just as I thought life couldn’t get more difficult it has. A week ago my adult daughter told us she was in a relationship with someone who identifies as male. This person was born female - daughter troped out the ‘gender assigned at birth’ nonsense. She has utterly ripped the family apart as she clearly has drunk the kool aid and cannot understand our concerns.

She has a great job, we are normal family where she says she has always felt safe and is loved.

Any advice welcome navigating this. Happy to answer questions but I will caveat this post with the following:

I am a sex realist. I hate the term gender critical.
I do not buy gender ideology. I think it is a term being used to expect society to accept trans etc off the back of the hard won rights for lesbians and gay men.

I do not believe anyone can change sex.

The ‘be kind’ mantra is a weaponised term to justify the nonsense.

Advice welcome.

If you are happy for your daughter to be in a lesbian relationship then is it a hardship to refer to their partner as he?

I disagree with lots of things my children believe in but we can agree to disagree. The world would be a dull place if we all thought the same.

@Husky0830 does your daughter still identify as a lesbian? If the person she’s dating sees herself/himself as a man it must be a bit devalidating (I know that’s not a word, but best way I could think to describe it!) to be fancied by a lesbian? Doesn’t that just prove that she’s attracted to him because he’s actually a woman? And if she still calls herself a lesbian while dating someone who I assume they both see as a man, then that must also be ‘devalidating’ to his identity. But at the same time, if she started identifying as a straight woman I suspect that would be ‘devalidating’ to her own identity as a lesbian. How do they deal with all that?

Is your daughter a lesbian or bi? Not that it matters in itself but surely a straight woman wouldn’t date someone with a female body.

Although I agree that it’s not something that I think needs to be the end of the world - that your child is dating a person whose trans, it is not in any way the same thing as accepting your daughter being in a lesbian relationship. The first is about identity and a clash of the fundamental beliefs of some people who do not believe it’s possible to change sex. Therefore referring to their daughter’s partner as ‘he’ is denying their fundamental beliefs and going along with something they know to be false. If I was in this position personally I’d just suck it up and be grateful my daughter was happy and I’d betray my own beliefs because my love for my child will always be more powerful than my personal values. However it’s still a lot simpler to accept your child is in a same-sex relationship, because that is just a fact - you’re not denying anything you can see with your eyes, or going along with a fantasy. Homosexuality exists and no one is pretending to be anyone else. Even if you’re a massive god-fearing homophobe and think your child will go straight to hell, you still know your child is not pretending to be that way

Lots of recent new posts. My daughter being in a relationship with another woman is absolutely fine. Same sex attracted rooted in biological reality.

My daughter being in a relationship with a woman who says she is now a man, has had a double mastectomy, is continuing to transition asking my daughter to refer to her as male. All based on lies.

In short that is my issue. In order to accept this we all have to lie.

I have an issue being made to lie.

I think a trans identifying male is a trans woman?

But anyway she's dating a trans man so she's dating a woman. If she's happy with that then I don't really see why it's such a disaster.

Would you be upset if she was just a lesbian dating another regular woman?

As long as she's happy you should just leave her to it. And try and forget that the partner identifies as male socially.

My DD always has described herself as bi-sexual, but clearly favors women as she hasn’t had a relationship with a man since 2019 and has had a few longer term lesbian relationships. She has also said that she likes women for their emotional intelligence; i.e. their mind, but likes very masculine/butch women for the physicality side. So I guess now this person is the best of both worlds to her 🤷‍♀️

I have an issue being made to lie.
To whom are you lying?
Just zip the lip and you do not need to lie to anyone.
Being loving towards your DD does not involve lying.

I am lying to myself stating this person is a man.

When my daughter comes to me, as she has and has shared information about the relationship and used phrases such as ‘oh I suppose (partners name) is just being a typical man’. If I agree then I am lying. Her partner is a woman.

Please refrain from telling me what to do.

Yeah I completely understand what you’re saying OP .

I am not telling you what to do. I am advising you that your current course of action will end in sadness for all.
The noncommital shrug and change of subject are useful. In the scenario above you do not have to agree; you just have to say nowt.

You do not believe this person is a man ... and neither do I ... but they are a person who has made some choices in life that you find seriously weird ... as do I ... but there is no need to challenge them. They are doing you no harm. There are plenty of people in this world whose decisions seem wrong to me, but they are doing no harm so there is nothing to say.
Sometimes standing on principle is neither productive nor as in this case necessary.

You literally told me to ‘zip the lip’.

You then wrote further essentially agreeing with my viewpoint.

The issue with all this ‘shrug’ or ‘change of subject’ is we are all going along with this persons delusion. If this person was anorexic I would be utterly mad to go along agreeing they were fat to match their views. Dangerously so.

I can imagine it does feel really weird. You know that they will never be doing ‘man things’ because man things involve things that ONLY men can do. If a woman can do them too, then they can’t, by their very nature be man things can they? I know it makes no sense but not much of this stuff does. Sorry not much help other than to say it’s a difficult situation to navigate.

I said that if you zip the lip you do not have to lie to anyone. That is true.

And to @BlueLegume @Husky0830 and @Parentingisharder - you might find your local Women's Rights Network groups are also a place of sympathy & understanding.

In my local WRN group there is at least one woman whose DC has swallowed the TRA handbook. It's a harrowing story, but she knows she can speak freely with us.

Thanks @ParmaVioletTea . I am located int the US and stumbled on this site as I was searching for people who are dealing with this difficult situation. I will look into this group to see if they have virtual forums. There is a group here in the US called PFLAG which is very prevalent across the states, but I’ve found they are heavily run and administered by trans and LGBTQ individuals, so the perspective is very different and not sympathetic at all to parental challenges. I felt it was more focused on pushing acceptance at any cost.

Has been through the top surgery and hormones. This has been very difficult for me

Difficult for you?

I am located int the US and stumbled on this site as I was searching for people who are dealing with this difficult situation.

Genspect is your best bet then @Husky0830 - or possibly the WDI - the Women's Declaration International, run by the amazing Kara Dansky. But the WDI in the US is more focused on legal & high level administrative challenges to TRA extremism.

genspect.org/

@AnAppleAWeek I am the original poster on this thread and I have never posted what you have just said. Please attribute it to whoever did say this. I think it is the poster from the US who has been clear they are struggling - why invalidate someone who has tried to get some help on here.

Could you also clarify for whoever you were quoting what you mean with the ‘difficult for you?’ Yes, some people find the whole issue around people identifying out of their biological sex difficult as it is all based on lies and the fudging of language as in ‘gender affirming care’ which to me is ignoring the reality of biological sex and dealing with the issues around that.

I have said this before.

This has been driven by men wanting to get into women’s spaces.
This has been driven by health care professionals telling young people they ‘have been born in the wrong body/were assigned the wrong gender at birth. the bingo card is endless all dressed up under the hideously weaponised ’be kind’.

I suppose it depends what the OP's end aim is. If it is to stand up for her beliefs at all costs, then that is fine, but will inevitably lead to a rupture in her relationship with DD, which would be very sad, for there could come a time when this young woman needs her mother's support.

If it is to show love to her DD by being by her side and seeing that she is finding her way in the adult world and needs friendship and care, then another approach entirely is needed.

Personally I would favour the latter.

We are navigating the situation as a family. A family that has been incredibly close for over 30 years. A family who look out for each other. A family who are open to many things. A family who have no issue with same sex relationships as we have several in the family and friendship groups.

We are aware some of those family and friends in same sex relationships feel threatened by the TRAs who expect them to accept a man can be a lesbian and a woman can be a gay man.

I recall watching The Crying Game. The ‘scene’ really is now reality.

As a middle aged heterosexual woman, if I was single and looking to date I want a biological man not a woman pretending to be a man. In the current climate that would deem me transphobic.

Explain why I am in the wrong there?

Op my DD has lots of trans friends, one particularly close. I have always been clear that I think gender ideology is nonsense and i refuse to use silly pronouns, I call them their name instead. Sometimes a correct sex pronoun will slip out as their sex is blatantly obvious, but it's not intentional and as such nobody seems to mind. I'm not the only one. I think the key is to focus on the person. Many of the young trans and NBs, the women especially, are confused and a bit lost. I won't participate in their delusion as I think that makes it worse but I will have compassion and care for them as human beings. I don't think you need to give up your GC views and certainly dont allow your DD to hold you to ransom. You can agree to disagree. Avoid the stupid pronouns altogether and respect her as a person not an identity.

You're not wrong. But.... your DD is an adult. What you mostly need to do is keep your mouth firmly closed. Be polite about the partner to DD and be polite to the partner. Don't give an opinion about any of this unless she asks, maybe not even then. Don't discuss the partner's mastectomy or her potential mental health. Really force yourself to take the view that this is none of your business. DD is an adult making her own choices. She is part of the family and she and her partner are included in the family but these topics are not family conversation.

Pronouns are tricky. I would avoid them altogether or go with they/them "because that's what I can manage".

But do not try to change your DD's mind about anything. Some things really can't be influenced (detranstioners talk about how little effect anything their parents said to them had on their decisions). Your DD has taken up views and made a decision that means you and she will have to be more distant. That's part of growing up. As adults you can discuss other things.

Don't listen to "daily rants" from DD, Instead take these topics off the table altogether. Solid boundary. Tell her you will not discuss sex or gender or her relationship with her partner either. Factual stuff like where they're going out, opinions like what did they think of an exhibition or a gig (unless everything they go to is all about the T in which case that's off the table too), but you don't want to hear about or talk about their opinions about sex, gender or each other. Base your conversations and relationship with DD (and her partner) on other topics.

And as for ‘oh I suppose (partners name) is just being a typical man’.
well she shouldn't be moaning about her partner to you in the first place since she doesn't want to hear your views. I would shut the complaints down, her relationship is her business, doesn't she have any friends to complain too? But if she insists and you want to be a listening then a bland "Oh, do you think so?" covers that and a whole lot more. OK, I'd be very tempted myself to go "typical man? isn't that a bit sexist?" but if your DD just wants to stir a fight I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.

In the meantime come over here to share your opinions and have a good rant about it all. But quarreling with DD is not going to change society. Or even change your DD's mind, for that matter.

We are aware some of those family and friends in same sex relationships feel threatened by the TRAs who expect them to accept a man can be a lesbian and a woman can be a gay man.

Yes, @BlueLegume it's extraordinary how homophobic extreme transactivism is, and how a lot of people don't see this.

High dose testosterone (assuming ftm?) is very much a happy drug at first, until it wears off and just leaves the unpleasant side effects, including early menopause, permanent facial hair, baldness and a deep voice. Which the many young women who are detransitioning are stuck with, for life.