Adult daughter dating trans-identified male, struggling to navigate family concerns

[BlueLegume]

Good morning all. I am normally rooted over on the Elderly parents threads. Just as I thought life couldn’t get more difficult it has. A week ago my adult daughter told us she was in a relationship with someone who identifies as male. This person was born female - daughter troped out the ‘gender assigned at birth’ nonsense. She has utterly ripped the family apart as she clearly has drunk the kool aid and cannot understand our concerns.

She has a great job, we are normal family where she says she has always felt safe and is loved.

Any advice welcome navigating this. Happy to answer questions but I will caveat this post with the following:

I am a sex realist. I hate the term gender critical.
I do not buy gender ideology. I think it is a term being used to expect society to accept trans etc off the back of the hard won rights for lesbians and gay men.

I do not believe anyone can change sex.

The ‘be kind’ mantra is a weaponised term to justify the nonsense.

Advice welcome.

My daughter went out with a lad from the ages of 16 to 19 who had red flags all over the place. She eventually split with him, at which point things went very nasty and he ended up on a stalking charge and she got a restraining order on him.

Sobi do understand about our children making bad choices.

And yet there is often little we can do. We were concerned but didn't want to drive her away - i was scared she would go to live at his house for example. So we allowed him to come here where we could keep an eye on them.

It's hard.

I still genuinely don't get your point. You're going to have to spell it out for me.

How?

If they are members of the HoLs, they are nominated and go through a process. It is a title that reflects that position. In that way, it is based on material reality because they are in a position and doing a role.

That you do not agree with that political process doesn't make it in anyway comparable to a person who has a subjective belief that they are the opposite sex to the sex category of their body demanding that this belief is treated as if it is material reality. That they believe this about themselves is certainly material real, but what they believe is not in anyway material reality.

So, no. The members of the HoL is not comparable in the way that you are attempting to make it fit.

'I won’t be coerced into a lie.'

@BlueLegume This is where I am too.

I always try to be polite to people IRL and I have had many interesting conversations with people who disagree with me about different topics (including people with trans identities). I will not use wrong sex pronouns and I do not pretend that people have changed sex, and yet I can absolutely talk to people and leave on good terms. The walking on eggshells with people who are on the RSOH is mentally exhausting though.

I have a relative who is a fully paid up progressive left/RSOH and the utter lack of thought they have put into these things that they go along with (purely because they want to 'be a good person' as they have admitted) is shocking. They are someone who lies without mental burden though. I just can't do it.

I sometimes wonder if those who easily and willingly go along with wrong sex pronouns don't understand how hard lying is for other people.

@CassOle, I have realised that TV programmes based around lies make me very uncomfortable. I'd almost rather have programmes about murders! But the sort of plot where, say, someone runs over a stranger in a genuine accident, and instead of fessing up they create a string of lies to hide what they've done, I find a difficult watch.

I go along with pronouns, as miminally as possible, but I've never been put on the spot about whether I think my child's TiM partner is a woman or a man, and I hope I'm not, because I don't think I could say an outright lie.

Good luck @BlueLegume My young relative doesn't live at all near to me, so I don't have to deal with this day to day. I try to separate out my familal affection for this person whatever they do, and my deep knowledge of feminism and women's history (like you I'm a second waver - I went to Women's Liberation conferences in my teens in the late 1970s) which forms my complete scepticism & rejection of extremist gender ideology.

A lot of young women have been denied their history as women (I teach this subject & I see it as giving back their history to young women), and don't realise how TRAs are driven by a masculinist aggressive misogyny.

But ... that doesn't help in the day to day. I think, if I were in your situation, I'd want to keep the relationship with my beloved daughter, and I'd try to see the spouting of gender ideology bollocks as youthful fanaticism

God knows, I subjected my own parents to enough of that when I was in my early 20s and discovering the world as a very wet-behind-the-ears adult.

Come here to vent & let off steam if you need to!

Also to add: a few year's ago, the DD of a friend of mine dated a trans-identified man for a while. My friend was very tolerant, and would talk about how happy her DD was, but would also tell me - almost in the same breath - about how her DD's partner was very insecure and disliked her DD having other friends, and was constantly on the verge of serious self-harm. I remarked that maybe the mind-body split of his gender dysphoria was a symptom of deeper MH illness, but my friend was so into #bekind she didn't make the connection.

She was relieved when her DD and this TiM broke up, though!

It seems to me there are always deeper mental health & illness issues with trans-identified people. The fantasy belief that they're "born in the wrong body" is symptomatic of a deep split between mind & body. Your DD @BlueLegume may find that dealing with a deeply mentally ill girlfriend becomes a burden.

OP I sympathise, I would find this very challenging too. It think it's best to try and avoid direct confrontation around yours and your DDs differing beliefs, but remain supportive with plenty of subtle reminders as to what constitutes a healthy relationship (no matter what the sexuality, sex or gender of the couple compromises).
Particularly that if a partner behaves in a controlling or coercive way, it's not really a healthy relationship.
Although not the same as your DD as she has begun with relationship when her partner has already begun transitioning, I have two friends who were were in happy lesbian relationships and their partners made a unilateral decision to transition and take cross sex hormones (and subsequently surgery). My friends found this very difficult, because these women gradually lost the characteristics to which my friends had been sexually attracted. They grew facial hair and body hair instead of having soft smooth skin, and removed their breasts. Although these women had always presented as 'butch', my friends found that fully masculine characteristics were not a turn on. However it was difficult for them to articulate that they were so unhappy with these changes, because "love is love, yeah? I'm still the same person, what's the difference?" or "I needed to do this for my mental health, do you not care about me?" But it turned out, after a while quite a lot was different. It was very difficult to break off when the narrative was "she's the unreasonable one, I needed to do this for my mental health and she's transphobic, what a despicable thing to be". But as it turns out, after the initial turmoil of the relationships ending and the dramatic threats of what breaking up might lead to, everyone ended up happier.
Bide your time and maybe over time your DD might decide of her own accord there's not enough in this relationship to keep her interested.
And gentle reinforcement that a good girlfriend/boyfriend is one that makes you happy and that doesn't require effort or changing yourself to make them happy, it should just happen naturally.

I really can't equate saying 'he' with telling a lie. A lie involves deceit. Your daughter knows who her partner is, so you're certainly not lying to her.

I can see why telling a friend of yours that your DD's partner is a man, would amount to a lie, but logically I can't see any basis for you referring them as he/him to his own partner, being a lie.

I certainly wouldn't see it as worth risking my relationship with my child.

It's the lie that holds up the whole damn ideology. The lie that human beings can change sex.

I can't do it. Mammals cannot change sex, and human beings are mammals.

@saraclara Think about it. Why is the truth that 2 + 2 = 4, such a fundamental theme running through Orwell's 1984? Why did Winston write about how it is important to be able to say this? That all flows from this truth? Why was Winston tortured in Room 101 until he would say that 5 fingers were being held up when there were only 4?

You may think it is a harmless lie.

For others, can you not see that the cost of saying 'he' for a female is the ability to describe reality itself?

Star Trek: The Next Generation also used the same theme from 1984.

Your DD knows your views, and (at the moment) holds just as strong opposing ones. You will not influence her to change her mind so I think the best approach is to avoid discussing it at all.
All you really need to do is be polite and welcoming to her girlfriend and engage with her on a 'How's work?' 'Would you like more pasta Troy?" level. Her 'identity' need never really be discussed.
The pronoun thing is tricky. You can try to avoid using them at all, but personally I find with my friends DD who also wants to be treated as a man, I use 'he' when it would sound weird not to so as not to rock the boat.
I personally find it easier to do this with TIW, because I don't have any investment in protecting male terms for men (that's up to men) and don't really care what other women choose to call themselves.
I understand the principle of course. But this isn't an issue that will hang on how you choose to address this young woman, whereas your good relationship with your DD at this time might.

So heartbreaking reading this thread. It could be my child you are saying is mentally ill and feeling so sorry for the OP. My child is autistic yes. Happy yes. Trans yes. I feel so sad reading how awful so many people think it would be to have one of their kids be in a relationship with someone like my child who is a lovely kid

The OP is being honest, she has concerns over her adult daughters choices, I certainly don't think the OP is trying to hurt anyone but she has the right to stand by her thoughts and worries and she is absolutely right not to lie.

I agree stuff like Onlyfans is awful, online porn etc etc

Otoh I'm not fully convinced that 'financially/politically powerful men abusing women' wasn't happening in the 1980s... but I can see what you mean : it's good it's being exposed now at least somewhat but very depressing for those coming of age seeing it in the news.

Gisele Pelicot - surely rape and assault were happening in the 80s? MeToo at least publicised them more. But I understand how terrible that case was. Some men had vile fetishes before but the Internet enabled them to congregate and intensified it.

I think it's also fair to note that France has often been behind England in attitudes to sexual assault and women's rights, though that obviously doesn't explain this horrific case.

Yes I do think it's easier with trans men. Most of them don't have a fetish and they generally don't seem to have the urge to violate people's spaces that transwomen often have

Yes, I think if OP's DD is bisexual it's possible she's OK with this but still questionable. Lesbian, surely not.

If I were OP I would just avoid pronouns wholly. She should not be forced to use 'he'.

Absolutely all of that would have been happening too, but the part I mean is that we were less aware of it in daily life. It felt like being a woman was a good thing, it was improving rapidly, and we could be powerful. Today all my DD sees on the news is men aggressively destroying things and women being treated as subhuman (see the roll back on bodily autonomy in the US - it’s on the news an awful lot).

That's what I'm thinking. Hopefully yes, as this might suggest they're not forcing themselves to be happy with male characteristics.

Personally...I'm bisexual but only date women due to preference. I'm still attracted to men, though. So the DD could prefer to date women but still be bisexual.

This of course doesn't mean DD will be happy with the transition. I think it's important OP keeps communication open to support and remind her to not stay if she is very unhappy.

I see what you mean...I'm Gen Z myself, currently at uni now and I limit my news exposure for my own mental health. I agree about the awful situation in the US and otter places for women (including the UK to some extent). I think it should be remembered that there are still a lot of women achieving in literature, music & other areas. We have more female MPs than ever etc. There are definitely a lot of serious problems for women now but I don't think it's all negative or a downward spiral.

It's also worth remembering that the US is a very different culture...the Roe situation, Trump etc are awful for women living there but UK abortion and other issues are not live wires here the way they are there, and not likely to be.

I agree with your point about progress: it's easier to cope with bad news when the overall trajectory seems more positive.

Op this is absolutely about control - but you are not the one being controlling, only tras are that deluded. It's about your daughter trying to compel her family's speech and about her partner trying to control all of you. It is fair to say that you risk losing your daughter, she risks losing her family but in the posts I have read (not the lot) no-one has yet pointed that out. If you previously had a good relationship what impact do you think pointing that out would have? Would she be sufficiently distressed to question the compelled speech or not?

You are willing to welcome her partner, you are willing to avoid referring to her as female when possible. She wants to compel your family's speech even when she is not there. You've shown willingness to welcome the partner, she and her partner are showing zero respect for your family.

Your daughter doesnt really love her family if she is willing to go along with this.

Sadly this compliance was and is very damaging to other more vulnerable women
It's lead to males raping women in prison cells and hospital beds under the guise of trans inclusion. It's led to women losing jobs, friends and careers. I'm ok Jack means Jill battered the door down

Your daughter doesn’t really love her family if she is willing to go along with this

this is a little extreme don’t you think. This thread has really been enlightening as a mother of a trans child. Some horrible people out there

@scientista I agree that suggesting my DD doesn’t really love us as a family is extreme. I know she loves us we have always been a very close family. I happen to know as she has told me she is utterly devastated at her DBs reaction, as are they about the situation we find ourselves in.

I’m sad you feel that there are some horrible people out there. You sound a very supportive parent. 💐

Is there any part of you that understands those of us, me being one such person, who believe sex is decided at the point of conception and cannot be changed are not horrible people. I think we have sold a lie to people, many autistic girls especially, that they were born in the wrong body, they weren’t. That being female is somehow something they can opt out of. They can’t.

That being gay is healthy and accepting you are same sex attracted is even healthier rather than pretending to be the opposite sex which then complicates any relationship as the partner has to collude in a lie. If my sons are gay men I do not want them to have to be expected to readily date a female who says she is a man. That is violating the rights of gay men.