Adult daughter dating trans-identified male, struggling to navigate family concerns

[BlueLegume]

Good morning all. I am normally rooted over on the Elderly parents threads. Just as I thought life couldn’t get more difficult it has. A week ago my adult daughter told us she was in a relationship with someone who identifies as male. This person was born female - daughter troped out the ‘gender assigned at birth’ nonsense. She has utterly ripped the family apart as she clearly has drunk the kool aid and cannot understand our concerns.

She has a great job, we are normal family where she says she has always felt safe and is loved.

Any advice welcome navigating this. Happy to answer questions but I will caveat this post with the following:

I am a sex realist. I hate the term gender critical.
I do not buy gender ideology. I think it is a term being used to expect society to accept trans etc off the back of the hard won rights for lesbians and gay men.

I do not believe anyone can change sex.

The ‘be kind’ mantra is a weaponised term to justify the nonsense.

Advice welcome.

All that is needed is for the OP to do as she is told. That she is being told to lie, and lie again tomorrow, and next week, and probably next year, and perhaps for the rest of her life, doesn't matter? Repeated lying, particularly when it is Hobson's choice, can do psychological damage.

I thought you said your daughter had dated (biological) men AND women. Would that not be bisexuality? 🤔

You said on the first page
"I have always been accepting of her dating boys and girls in the past."

Im aware there are some differences between being bisexual and pansexual (former being predominantly attracted to male and female, latter being attracted to the person regardless of gender).

So is she adjusting her sexuality or was she always bisexual and is more "fluid (for lack of a better word)" in terms of that than you originally thought?

Sorry to pick on you but as someone who has suffered from severe mental health problems their entire adult life, having cosmetic surgery is not a mental health problem and everyone (not just you) saying this can kindly STFU about completely inappropriate usage of that phrase.

A plastic and reconstructive surgeon discusses reconstructive surgery Vs cosmetic surgery at the beginning of this video, and what motivates people to want cosmetic surgery (discusses 'gender' surgery).

I did post a link to the article by WRN further up thread but it’s probably got abit lost.

@KnottyAuty did pick up on it and rightly so has given it it’s own thread. Please read it -it is an excellent thought provoking piece and anyone who responded telling me to live and let live or just go along with things might, I only say might, have a somewhat different perspective.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5505512-5505512-a-pluralism-of-engagement-a-thought-experiment-on-trans-rights-using-the-analogy-of-trans-disablism?reply=151178401

I did read this & did it alter my perspective, no. What makes the two things different is quite simply that they are different & your daughter’s partner doesn’t have a body integrity disorder. Conflating the two is a little like how homosexuality and paedophilia used to be used.

You are completely entitled to your opinion as is your daughter, it’s just a question of whether that’s a hill you are going to die on or not. It sounds like it is but I think personally would keep this to myself and try and be respectful of my daughter’s choices. If this turns into a long term relationship you really could be shooting yourself completely in the foot.

Have you actually read the OP’s posts? I understand there is a lot of information in there about what she believes, but I think some posters are not understanding the situation.

She has expressed concerns about the relationship, sure. And with good reason considering what the daughter has said. However, she also has said that while she has reservations, she would welcome the person as any other person.

Her daughter is the one being a ‘dick’. Her daughter is demanding what language the OP uses and has initially indicated that using male language to describe this person is the only acceptable choice the OP has in the view of the daughter. Ie using neutral language is not an option that the daughter has said is acceptable. It might not yet have been discussed even because the daughter is making demands and not engaging with discussion outside of the daughter’s view.

All the rest of what the OP has said is about her confusion of what is happening and her concern that there may be mental health issues that might negatively impact her daughter. Plus she is concerned about the way her daughter has changed since starting the relationship.

She has not said she was going to do anything that would qualify her as ‘being a dick’ or being hateful etc, despite numerous people replying to her as if she has been the one who is making demands.

There are a wide range of mental health problems of varying degree and for many people, their decision to have unnecessary cosmetic surgery is very much rooted in a mental health issue.

Thanks @Helleofabore you neatly summed that up.

I was pondering a reply to @SJaneS somewhat predictably making me the problem because they have assumed I won’t acquiesce to the ideology/ daughter’s expectations. I am very concerned she is in over head with someone expecting her to pretend they are a man. She may not be. At the moment we are putting thought as to how we move forward.

I actually wonder if you had a disabled child for example in a team for example and they lost their place to someone identifying as disabled - how would you feel? Because there is a real link there for me. My daughter’s partner is pretending to be a man. Just like the people in the piece pretending to be disabled.

The point of the piece really is how much of ideology under the guise of ‘be kind’ can we let into society before we are broken. It is the very antithesis of tolerance. It is do it our way or we will accuse you of bigotry. Without getting too political it is the ultimate goal of post modernism queer theory all dressed up as DEI.

How would I feel? Well not happy about it obviously but I’m not convinced by a well written ‘whataboutery’ piece that essentially says two very different things are one and the same when clearly they aren’t. That’s my opinion which I’m entitled to OP as you are yours. Again, if it’s a hill you want to die on, it’s entirely up to you! You’ve clearly come on here as it’s a GC forum expecting consensus and affirmation - I’m sorry but I do think this will go only one way for you if you refuse to use your daughter’s partners pronouns. My nephew who uses ‘they/them’ hasn’t spoken to my sister for five years now after a ‘well, it’s all b*llocks really isn’t it? comment. But this isn’t my call or anyone else’s call to make and this is entirely up to you!

Whose pronouns? The pronouns someone uses about you are your pronouns, are they? Or are they their pronouns, their language, which they can use to communicate their choice of meaning?

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic if you want to have a respectful (and also,kind) interaction with anyone, you don’t intentionally misgender them. But this is where we will differ as GC & Intersectional feminists. And what a waste of flipping energy that could be used to the purpose of something actually meaningful to the lot of women’s

But it is meaningful to allow people to use the language they want when it is correct and doesn't use any words recognised as offensive. It is meaningful not to make people go through the extra mental work (yes, even if 'only' for a few milliseconds) that is required to look at someone who's obviously one sex and refer to them as the other.

women, not women’s! Need more caffeine & have to start work.

I feel for you OP. If your daughter stays with this woman then she will likely be stuck in the role of carer for someone with poor physical and mental health.

Women's bodies simply aren't built to cope with huge levels of testosterone and there's a good chance that it will lead to incontinence and possibly double incontinence.

This will affect this woman's ability play sport, go on holiday, have sex - all the fun things that you would want your daughter to enjoy with her partner.

This is from a Telegraph article:

"Around 87 per cent of the participants had urinary symptoms such as incontinence, frequent toilet visits and bed-wetting, while 74 per cent had bowel issues including constipation or being unable to hold stools or wind in. Some 53 per cent suffered from sexual dysfunction.
...
Other trans men suffered from frequent urinating including during the night, burning sensations, hesitancy, urgency and difficulty in going, while others had issues defecating.
Almost half had an “orgasm disorder”, while a quarter suffered from pain during sexual intercourse.
...
Elaine Miller, a pelvic health physiotherapist and member of the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy, said...she had worked with around 20 detransitioners who sought help for pelvic floor issues - and many more from around the world had been in touch - but that there was a “stigma” around incontinence and that people were “embarrassed” and minimised the issue.
“Wetting yourself is something that just is not socially acceptable, and it stops people from exercising, it stops them from having intimate relationships, it stops them from travelling, it has work impacts,” she said.
“The impact a bit of leaking has on these young people’s lives is huge. It really needs to be properly discussed within gender clinics because I would expect that almost 100 per cent of female people that take cross-sex hormones will end up with these problems,” she added, noting that the study was “robust” and probably underplayed the issue.
“It’s really sad when we hear people say, ‘nobody ever told me this’, and they should have been informed of the risks in gender clinics.”

The authors of the study, led by Lyvia Maria Bezerra da Silva at the Federal University of Pernambuco, Brazil, said the findings “showed a high frequency of at least one of the pelvic floor dysfunction symptoms” and that more research into the impact of testosterone was needed because the “long-term effects are still unknown”.
The research was published in the International Urogynecology Journal."

https://archive.ph/2bdC3

Demanding that a person acts as if they believe someone else’s subjective reality is material reality when it is not material reality is a significant issue though. What other group of people have the right to do this in the UK at the moment?

Not only that, but why is this demand treated as being respectful?

And yes, if other people didn’t try to enforce their personal language choices that change the established conventions for the English language as the standard that others have to use, many other important things would get the attention needed.

I’m sorry @ConstanzeMozart, like the majority of intersectional feminists I don’t think it’s meaningful, just disrespectful & pedantic. And as long as we as feminists let ourselves get bogged down in this kind of crap, nothing moves forward. More unites us than divides us and we need more discourse and to stop hiving ourselves off into two camps. There are clearly much bigger issues.

Have you thought about how disrespectful your own opinion is to others in that you are here seeking to shame others for having a different opinion to you?

What other groups? There are bishops in the Lords for one.

And what punishment is there for not using the title of such people?

If someone wants to have a respectful (and also kind) interaction with anyone, he or she doesn't intentionally ask you to mis-sex them.

As for intersectional feminism, I recognise the original insight described as "intersectionality" and agree that it has some validity and is a useful tool in understanding oppression and marginalisation, but I think it has been elevated beyond its usefulness. Someone who cannot claim to be at the intersection of more than one marginalised group can be badly oppressed or marginalised, and I see their societal disadvantage ignored by the use of "intersectionality" not as a tool for deeper understanding, but as an excuse to dismiss. And I have seen "my feminism is intersectional" become a way of dismissing anyone else's feminism.

As it happens, I don't claim to be a feminist, though I have a lot of sympathy for some of the causes in feminism.

Kindness and respect only goes one way it seems.

Sorry @Helleofabore but it is disrespectful to purposely musgender someone. It’s also of very dubious legality in a work setting too. This from the Sandie Peggie ruling ‘1023 - those with gender-critical beliefs cannot indiscriminately and gratuitously refer to trans persons in terms other than they would wish. Such conduct could, depending on the circumstances, amount to harassment of, or discrimination against, a trans person’.

Misgender not musgender…

I am gender critical but on a policy level - I don't say anything to trans people themselves. I think separating the policy from the personal is doable. Tbh there is very little expected of you when interacting directly with a trans person, as the English language makes no gender differentiation, unlike say French. And we don't generally say "yes sir" or "yes maam" like they do in the US. Here, it's more when we are referring to someone with someone else eg "what would he/she like". So the OP is being tasked by her daughter with getting it right when talking to her, not to her partner. This is controlling imo and trying to convert her mum.