Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

[GrimDamnFanjo]

I have to comment on a paper that’s come for approval. It’s a policy regarding menopause at work.
theres detail regarding the experience of black women, women with disabilities, trans men and those who identify as non binary and a line that transwomen may experience pseudomenopausal symptoms due to taking hrt.
is this true?
is this any different to anyone having side effects for drugs they take or am I missing something?

Menopausal symptoms are caused by drops in oestrogen and progesterone. We take HRT to ameliorate the symptoms by replacing the hormones.

Why would those symptoms be caused by adding oestrogen? Oestrogen prevents them. It makes no sense. Taking oestrogen for being trans doesn’t cause something that happens as a result of lacking oestrogen.

Pure idiocy in motion. The whole damn ideology causes the brain to rot in everyone it touches.

Pseudo menopause refers to medically induced menopause, which can be experienced by women who receive treatment for endometriosis or fibroids, or as part of treatment for female cancers. It is not ‘fake’ but it is reversible (ie by stopping the medication). Therefore it probably does belong in the menopause policy as women who may not be perceived as old enough for menopause can experience perimenopause.

This is rubbish. Take it from one who lives with a close relative who is a transwoman. They do not get menopausal symptoms! Menopausal symptoms are a result of women having reduced levels of oestrogen, which is relieved by HRT which replaces these hormones.

Transwomen never had these levels of oestrogen in their bodies as they are men. They take cross sex hormones (oestrogen) to develop secondary sex characteristics which mimic those of women to help them cope with their gender dysphoria. As male bodies are not designed to have these levels of oestrogen in them, side effects may be experienced., but this is not menopause.

For the benefit of those in the cheap seats at the back, I repeat, TRANSWOMEN DO NOT GO THROUGH MENOPAUSE!!

@catinateacup
It’s not that simple. Menopausal symptoms are actually caused by an imbalance between hormones as the estrogen and progesterone don’t decline evenly. This is why some women suffer horribly- the decline of both is way out of balance- and why some women seem to sail through with no symptoms- the decline of both is relatively balanced.

The hormone blockers and hormones that transwomen take do cause the same hormone imbalance symptoms. But just because the symptoms are the same, the cause is not and cannot ever be menopause for a transwoman.

I agree it’s brain rot. The cause of any symptoms determines the diagnostic term used, not symptoms by itself. Imagine blurry vision being due to cataracts being called myopia. It’s nonsense.

Does it? I have never heard a medical person or read a study that referred to chemically induced or surgically induced menopause as pseudo menopause.

Some men with prostate cancer have to take tablets or have injections to block testosterone which the cancer feeds on. They can suffer many similar symptoms to menopause (called andropause I think).
I’m not sure if transwomen block their testosterone and take estrogen or take estrogen alone. It is very bad for their long term health.

Exactly.

They could just stop taking the drugs if this was the case.

They arent going through menopause so I’m not sure why this is in a menopause policy.

This is just surely about sick leave or something

WOMEN are the only people who need any sort of policy regarding menopause. The whole point of menopause is your normal hormone level drop naturally and leave you with symptoms.

MEN taking cross sex hormones may need a policy relating to issues with transition, but it's got fuck all to do with the menopause and everything to do with being men on drugs. Men are not taking the drugs to stop issues relating to a natural decline in hormones at a certain point in life. If they have issues it's because they are taking medication for a completely different purpose so have a completely different issue.

Men interloping into a women's only health matter dilute the issues women are having by declaring they have X or y symptoms - but the cause is something completely different to women's issues so it means the issue the women are having gets distorted.

It's like having a support session for people with cancer but people with Parkinson's turning up and saying well we are all the same and should be treated exactly the same. In other words it's a complete nonsense.

Menopause isn't well understood as it is. Look at this thread. It's on the feminist section of MN and there's lots of posters saying inaccurate things about it. That's what we need to stop. So having blokes turn up and talk about their experience of menopause - which will be based either off shit they read elsewhere on the internet which may be full of shit or their own bodily experiences which have fuck all to do with menopause - is unhelpful to women talking about what they are currently going through and struggling with and who needs accurate information and appropriate support. Bloke saying he needs x, y or z isn't helpful for any of the women because he's talking about a completely different health issue.

Here is one for the radar - women who have a history of anxiety or are neurodiverse are more likely to struggle with menopause. They don't really know why but it's something to do with being more sensitive to hormone changes or having more issues with hormone imbalances. No one seems to know this one and it's fairly important as anyone in that situation needs to be more aware of how it might be likely to impact them before they have a complete meltdown and don't really understand what's going on.

Men can have their own policy and their own sessions about hormone related issues in the workplace if they wish but that's a completely different area of health which is irrelevant to women and the menopause. Women have different bodies and their bodies respond differently to men's even if taking the same drug for the same condition so fuck knows why we are lumping women going through the menopause with men taking an unproven drugs for issues with their bodily self image. Other than because some bloke in an office is an utter dick who knows fuck all about menopause is making this nonsense shit up.

Just because both groups use the same drugs doesn't mean they have the same health issues - the back to front thinking of thinking 'female hormones, it's all just the same' is the height of sexism and ignorance. If it's about reducing ignorance about the menopause they could start right here.

Generally transwomen do take testosterone blockers along with the oestrogen.

Actually, “imbalances” between oestrogen and progesterone are not thought to be why menopause symptoms happen. In fact, it’s not actually precisely known why menopause symptoms are caused by declining oestrogen (one mechanism of action for hot flushes, for example, is thought to be that sudden drops in oestrogen trigger changes in the hypothalamus). But men on hormones are not getting any “imbalances”, because they are taking a steady dose of oestrogen. (Almost no trans women take progesterone.)

Just like the stuff about men on hormones getting “period” symptoms is also rubbish. PMS and period pains are caused by prostaglandins in the uterus and bowel rising when oestrogen and progesterone drop at the end of the cycle, largely triggered by the drop in progesterone. Whatever “period” symptoms trans women might think they are getting, they are categorically not experiencing uterine prostaglandins rising as a result of low progesterone.

Only biological women experience menopause. Men who claim to be women do not experience menopause. Men who claim to be non-binary do not experience menopause.

As a woman who has been on HRT for over 40 years now, I had one GP suggest I taper off oestrogen and progesterone in my late 40s. He explained this as needing to enter 'menopause' as I was entering the age. I've had other medical professionals convince me to stay on HRT until I die. I know I feel better with them, so this is the path I am taking.

In response to other responders, yes trans people use HRT to affect changes in their bodies. The exact changes are DNA specific for each individual and typical pubertal changes, as far as each body is capable of developing those changes, stop after some number of years of treatment. Absent gonads, trans bodies don't 'reverse back.' Permanent changes are permanent. The continued exposure of a body to HRT maintains the condition of tissues and bodily systems receptive to and controlled by those hormones. Stopping HRT affects tissues and bodily systems.

If you wish to provide a purely political answer to the topic, I'm certain you will find the words. If you are concerned about an accurate answer, please speak with a medical expert.

Isn't the "accurate answer" simply that only women experience menopause because only women experience menstruation.

Whatever men experience, irrespective of whatever medication they are on, it is not menstruation and it is not menopause.

There is no need to consult a medical expert in the development of a policy about menopause where someone seeks to include male people. Including the side effects that results from male people taking hormones for cosmetic purposes in a section specific menopause creates inaccuracy and distraction.

If a policy is required for male people specifically for the side effects of their choice to use these or other hormones, that is a different discussion. The organisation then has to consider what other elective hormone supplement decisions it wishes to support specifically in policies. Or does the impact of that decision get included in the general policy.

Perhaps OP, the approach to take is to discuss the negative impact of including people in a policy section that could lead to those people making changes to that policy that will make the policy less usable. Similar to when some male people become ‘women’s officers’ and start negatively influencing policies or organisational action so that those policies or actions don’t provide what female people specifically need. This makes the policy / action unfit for the purpose intended.

You’re male, though, aren’t you? So none of this is relevant.

TL: DR version: men’s bodies are messed up by high levels of wrong sex hormones for decades.

Got it.

Exactly.

Yet, the discussion on menopause then becomes about how any male can experience something that is impossible for them to experience. Yet through linguist manipulation, is seemingly made possible.

No woman is ever on HRT for 40 years. It's a change in reproductive system, in essence the cessation of menstruation, and is a specific period in a woman's life, not an ongoing situation. No man has ever menstruated as bluntly, they lack the kit. Men taking artificial hormones to produce outward secondary sex characteristics is an entirely different medical condition.

As above: what exactly is this policy's purpose? Why do they feel they need a policy for women currently in the process of menopause?

The medication related needs of men in the work place is a different policy.

The question to be asked is also, how do female people benefit in any way from a male person’s subjective reality being treated as if it is material reality. It effectively commoditises female body functions by allowing the language unique to female people to be acquired for male people to repurpose for their own use.

There is no benefit to female people in that particular transaction, the commoditisation of our body processes, despite us constantly being told that it ‘enriches’ our experience as female people.

That’s a great angle - if they want an “inclusive” policy then it should include all menopause “symptoms”… might allow OPto challenge this more broadly and avoid penalties due to accusations of transphobia?

There are other endocrine treatments for cancer eg tamoxifen which induce menopause after cancer treatment and which are stopped after 5 years and periods resume

In the NHS policies - yes - staff seemed to be offered extra time off for surgeries and medical treatments. It was very odd - as you say I thought other elective surgery might not be so well accommodated….

I do like Any Sousa’s line which is along the lines that it doesn’t matter how much a man invests in his feminisation, it doesn’t make him a woman. And women are not responsible for the decisions that those men make nor do we have any responsibility to support that decision in any way when it comes to acting as if that purchase (financial or not) has made that man a woman.

I’ve heard it called “early” menopause (even if it will be reversible on completion of cancer related treatment)

I haven’t come across it often either, usually referred to as medical menopause, or induced menopause, but it does come up. Either way I’d avoid the term in relation to TW who don’t have experience anything analogous to menopause.