Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

[GrimDamnFanjo]

I have to comment on a paper that’s come for approval. It’s a policy regarding menopause at work.
theres detail regarding the experience of black women, women with disabilities, trans men and those who identify as non binary and a line that transwomen may experience pseudomenopausal symptoms due to taking hrt.
is this true?
is this any different to anyone having side effects for drugs they take or am I missing something?

Yes. As the Supreme Court judgement made clear.

I would be cautious, OP, that the company doesnt leave itself open to potential discrimination claims from men who do not have the PC of 'gender reassignment'.

Just had a quick google. It seems like black women are sometimes mentioned specifically because they experience discrimination generally and so additional discrimination in relation to menopause compounds problems. And because they may experience barriers in accessing healthcare. Now all this may be true, but it would also be true for other groups (Asian women, gypsy women, working-class women) so it's probably been included for political reasons or just because the policy has been imported from America. This means that the trans stuff will have been included for similar reasons.

I would really question what the relevance of all this is to the workplace. Workplaces policies should only include things that are factual and are of direct relevance to some provision that is being enacted. They shouldn't make political statements or broad comments about social inequalities unless immediately relevant.

It’s not Hormone Replacement Therapy. It’s the same medications/hormones as HRT, but it’s being used on a male body so will not cause menopausal symptoms.

It is hormone aka endocrine therapy which is prescribed for other conditions like cancer, infertility, hypo/hyoerthyroidism, and many autoimmune disorders.

I would not think hormone therapy for transwomen would belong in a menopause policy but in a general sick leave policy.

However, hormone therapy for transmen does induce menopause, because it suppresses ovaries and stops estrogen production in a female body. This would cause menopausal symptoms. Perhaps the line is a typo?

I mean what are these pseudomenopausal symptoms? Any man could be said to experience them, I suppose, it doesnt mean anything. Would men get time off for a phantom pregnancy? Or compassionate leave for the death of an imaginary friend?

There's a lack of logic in what they've said - no surprises there.

I, as a female from the moment of conception, would have experienced menopause whether or not I took any drugs to deal with symptoms. However, as written in OP's post, TW are only experiencing symptoms because of the drugs. Their 'problems' are only caused by the meds.

I'm not sure why your policy has to talk about all those groups at all. It just has to outline what qualifies for consideration under the policy and what happens when someone qualifies.

And no, side effects from talking a drug don't count. They might fall under some other policy, but aren't relevant to menopause.

Honestly, that's like saying because a man has headaches, like some women in menopause, do, he should get consideration under that policy. Um, no.

Though one might ask why the cause of symptoms that are medically debilitating makes and differernce really - why have a separate policy for a specific issue? If you have massive bleeding and faint from periods, you take a sick day, surely?

Menopause happens when a woman's periods stop, not when she takes hormones. When we take hormones for contraception they don't cause menopausal symptoms, even though the doses are higher.

Your workplace need to stop worrying about being inclusive or offending anyone, and start laying down boundaries to protect the employees who do qualify for a privilege.

The Equality Act explanatory notes state that ''men cannot claim privileges for women connected with pregnancy or childbirth.'' I think that now needs updating to say something like;
''men cannot claim privileges for women based on the protected characteristic of sex, including but not limited to pregnancy, childbirth or menopause.''

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/2/1/1

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1914554/supreme-court-rules-legal-definition-woman-based-biological-sex

ACAS guidelines and EHRC guidance need updated post SC.

I’d never heard of a workplace policy for menopause so I googled it and “trans”. This one from QMUL comes up and makes sure to include trans men refreshingly. Might be worth pointing them towards this one as an example? HRT for TIMs notably absent…
www.qmul.ac.uk/human-resources/equality/menopause/who-can-experience-the-menopause/

I would be very carefully using the full phrase "hormone replacement therapy" rather than HRT when querying this factual inaccuracy to give people more opportunities to engage their brain and think about this properly.

Too many people aren't using their brains and won't consider what HRT stands for otherwise. Or why they're so desperate to include men in a menopause policy.

From Googling, QMU have a HR policy online that references something similar but acknowledges that such symptoms would only occur in a man taking cross sex hormones if he was taking them inconsistently.

Ah xpost.

@Thelnebriati
Menopause happens when a woman's periods stop, not when she takes hormones

Menopause still happens even when you are taking HRT. Which is taking hormones. HRT only alleviates or reduces the symptoms of menopause, it doesn’t stop it.

@TempestTost
side effects from taking a drug don't count
I assume you are not including woman taking drugs that do cause menopause?
Many women have to have menopause chemically induced which requires taking drugs.

Men trying to get away with shit. Utter nonsense. So sick of it.

You could also go the other way and say that if you are going to include other forms of hormone treatment, what about men with prostate cancer, or women going through IVF treatment, or those with thyroid conditions.

Because if it's just about hormones (and not menopause) why only cover one area.

Menopause is a very specific process and no male person has any type of ‘menopause’.

The side effects of a drug regime that male people have chosen to take is not any type of menopause. Just like those male people do not go through ‘female puberty’.

If male people require a policy relating to their own medical issues, that should be a discussion to be had. They should not be mentioned or in any way included in a menopause policy.

Well obviously not because they are actually going through menopause so the policy is for them.

Thanks. It wasn’t so obvious for me because chemically induced menopause has a higher incidence of severe side effects than natural menopause. It is also reversible, unlike natural menopause.

I would keep the response simple and question the use of the term "HRT" ('replacement' is incorrect) and ask what evidence they've used for the assertion about pseudo-menopause symptoms.

I recently saw the term "hormone transition therapy" in an article in The Telegraph. It was used by the defendant's (who was a TW) barrister so I assume it's use is accepted in transgender circles.

Use the correct term: cross-sex hormones or opposite sex hormones. HRT is “replacement “ whereas trans-identified men take opposite sex hormones. They’re not replacing anything.

More generally, I think you could say something along the lines of checking that the policy is legal and obeys the Supreme Court clarification of the Equality Act.

murmur something about ensuring that your business is not vulnerable to expensive litigation eg Darlington nurses or the Sandie Peggie case.

Also be specific about the Equslity Act. There is no hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are all protected and men undergoing gender reassignment have no more rights than women on the grounds of sex.

And the Supreme Court decision confirms that men using the PC of gender reassignment would be. Compared to the treatment of men not undergoing gender reassignment, not compared with women. The SC decision confirmed that men are not to be considered as women on the grounds of sex.

Actually I think it's all a massive red herring.

It doesn't matter what the cause of medical symptoms is, natural menopause, induced menopause, or something else. It matters that the symptoms affect the employee in a particular way.

The only thing I suppose would be an issue would be if the medical problem was self-induced - can you qualify for medical leave for a nose job, for example? I'd say no and that might affect men taking hormones to transition. But not women in menopause or taking drugs for serious medical issues.

You could argue that they would be covered as medical leave under the policies that are relevant to whatever they are taking the drug for.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I would think.

We've had blokes come on here and claim hrt is the correct term because the wrong sex hormones are 'replacing' the ones their bodies naturally produce. I think 'substitute' would be a better term, and hst prevents confusion with actual hrt.

Same, I am a bit leery of separate specific policies addressing women’s medical issues. I would rather just add menopause to a list of medical conditions where you can get paid time off due to debilitating symptoms.

It feels like men and their conditions are the acceptable default and women and our conditions are the extraordinary concessions which we should be grateful for,

As they take both hormone blockers and hormones, I prefer ET- endocrine therapy.