Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

[GrimDamnFanjo]

I have to comment on a paper that’s come for approval. It’s a policy regarding menopause at work.
theres detail regarding the experience of black women, women with disabilities, trans men and those who identify as non binary and a line that transwomen may experience pseudomenopausal symptoms due to taking hrt.
is this true?
is this any different to anyone having side effects for drugs they take or am I missing something?

So many great women writers express this very thing solero. This is very clearly what many of us have been trying to say on this board.

"But in some very real senses, female biology shapes female history—a history that men don’t have because of their sex—including the history of menstruation, the history of pregnancy or the capacity to become pregnant, the history of childbirth and abortion, the history of certain bodily cycles and life changes, and the history of female subordination in a male-dominant society. Note that I keep saying history. To deny that female history is, in part, based on female biology is like denying that important aspects of Black history are based on skin color. As with biological skin color, female biology doesn’t confer an essential femininity; rather it confers a historical reality about what it means to be born with XX chromosomes."

However, apparently this ^^ is just women being limited in our imagination / hateful / bigoted / misinformed.

Yet, unless someone tries to twist this into only being a 'concept' through philosophical belief and theory, this remains consistent throughout history and it will abide as well. It is only ever through some philosophical lens that this gets changed to include male people. Yet at the same time, there are those who will then deny that it is a personal belief that is based on such philosophising and attempt to convince people that it just 'is'. That some male people really are female people because [insert reason here].

At the moment there is a social contract, supported by British law, that men stay out of spaces where women are vulnerable. An ancient social contract born from the knowledge that men will prey upon women. Yes, NAMALT, but keeping all out keeps the bad ones out. ‘Good men stay out so that bad men stand out’.

Equality legislation recognises that discrimination has a part in protecting safety and equity.

If you allow some men in to validate their sense of self as a ‘woman’, how can you then keep other men out? How do you differentiate between the quiet, non-aggressive ‘pee in peace’ men, and the fetishist men who get off on hearing women pee, on rummaging for used tampons, on planting hidden cameras, on terrorising women? How do you differentiate between them and opportunist rapists?

All these things have happened, have been documented either by the men themselves, or by the convictions they have received when their transgressions are dealt with by the justice system.

Women’s physical vulnerability is why it comes back to toilets and changing rooms.

Some men will just use absolutely anything to justify wanting to pretend they're women.

OnePost, for instance, is perfectly happy to decry realism itself, in order to do it. To blindly lie and criticise others for not lying with him.

Other men will invent ridiculous definitions of being female, involving data points and constellations.

The less wordy amongst them will just pour piss on themselves in, er, protest that they're not allowed in women's spaces.

And, of course, there are those men whose boner has such a bloody life of its own they convince companies that not only is the menopause not sex specific, but they're actually going through it themselves. And everyone must say so.

Fortunately, the sheer number of men who are emboldened by this has led to quite a few people realising that's it's a fetish. And so their tactics become less and less successful.

As I've said before, it's pretty much a one-way journey.

What isn't, is the realisation, that smacks you between the eyes with its vehemence, that some men truly are this porn addled, and other, otherwise quite normal people, are happy to accommodate it.

'Other men will invent ridiculous definitions of being female, involving data points and constellations.'

Yes, then they run to Reddit for headpats for being brave and standing up to those awful women (or, amusingly, 'tilting at windmills' as Butters once phrased it).

Despite all the headpats - they are still wrong.

I can absolutely imagine that accurate information on the potential withdrawal symptoms after long term use of cross sex hormones would be very useful to people like OnePostWonder.

There is no way that a menopause policy can or should cover that, as it doesn't involve the menopause.

"Other men will invent ridiculous definitions of being female, involving data points and constellations."

And they will be absolutely convinced that not one person on earth will correctly identify their sex category. Some will even post photos of JK Rowling, inviting people to believe that it is an early photo of them in ultimately an attempt to mock JK Rowling and cover up the fact that even in a photo, people can correctly identify that male person's sex category.

And that same person has also been in video interviews and does not have a female voice... but apparently, no one has ever said anything so no one must be correctly identifying his sex category and just avoiding mentioning it or removing themselves from the situation.

Once you see the utter desperation that some men cling to, to justify their claim to be women, you cannot unsee that either.

I would advise the OP to start the document with a clear, factual sentence such as:

Menopause affects the female half of the population, including women who identify as men or non-binary.

This is biologically correct and trans-inclusive.

I would then continue with the medical definition, keeping it as simple as possible:

Menopause is defined as 12 months without a menstrual period. Perimenopause is the process leading to this state. It usually occurs in women in their late 40s/early 50s, but can also arise earlier after surgery or chemotherapy.

I would ensure the document reiterates that transmen on the drugs/surgery route will experience menopause; being mindful of general scientific illiteracy, and the deliberate magical thinking propogated around cross-sex hormones. Something like:

Transmen (women who identify as men) who take testosterone and/or undergo surgical removal of ovaries & uterus will undergo menopause, often with increased medical risks.

I think it's very important that people realise that the quiet, frail, androgynous young woman with the wispy beard may be going through the same phsyical hell more commonly associated with middle-aged women.

There is no need to mention males, inc transwomen, at any point. In the same way that my lab's risk assessment for laser use doesn't mention Tier 2 visa rules.

No, you're not missing anything.
Any pre-menstrual-like symptoms these men claim to experience are side effects of the high doses of cross-sex hormones they take. This is NOT HRT as they are not replacing hormones they once produced, they are adding wrong-sex hormones.
Transwomen don't menstruate, so they cannot by definition go through menopause.
@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g is right, this is the work of a biological numpty with an agenda.
I would try to sound out some colleagues and push back on the science, while being 'kind' and adding something about the need to be aware of the feelings of men, oops, transwomen, and enbies.

Surely they shouldn’t put anything with pseudo in their policy. The very meaning of the word highlights that it is not the same as menopause.

Update - meeting postponed! I will update the thread when it happens!

I think this is a major aspect with AGP, and even some men have trouble with it - it just seems too weird to be true.

One thing I have realised as I've become older is a lot of people don't have a very good imagination, they can't easily imagine how someone would think or feel in a differernt way than they themselves would. It's only if they see something actually happen that it can click that it is real as it seems too far fetched.

For women it's even more outside their experience, and they have a harder time connecting it to an experience they can relate to.

For women it's even more outside their experience, and they have a harder time connecting it to an experience they can relate to.

It's also not something that many woman outside of professional involvement in forensic psychiatry or "sexology" actually want to think about or relate to.

The immediate, natural, reaction to being informed about AGP is disgust and a wish to escape asap from having details of the perversion implanted in their minds and memories.

Denial is also an easy way to shoo away and shut out awareness of a nightmare that risks polluting one's world view.

It used to be so much easier to think about these men.

Man steals knickers off washing lines = dirty pervert.

That was all there was to it. You didn't need to think about why he did it other than that he was a dirty pervert.

Just warn your kids not to go anywhere near the dirty pervert. Maybe report him to the police. Or someone's dad or husband might go round and frighten him off by threatening the dirty pervert with a bloody good hiding if the dirty pervert did it again.

Just think how many posts would not have happened if this was the actual Mummy?

Obviously not actual sex.

Ok so update is here!
I was the only person who asked for the policy to be amended to clarify that the policy was for women including those who identified as male and non binary and transwomen experiencing side effects would be better served under a different policy.
their response was they needed to get legal advice!

Well bloody well done for making them sit up and think. Or prevaricate.

I can't believe women are having to go through this. Seriously. It's risible.

Legal advice.

What they really need is medical advice or a hefty dose of common sense.

Well done, OP. I look forward to hearing more.

Well done, it looks like you said just enough to make them think, without dragging yourself into too much interaction.

I think keeping it brief and neutral and 'concerned about the organisation putting itself in a bad place by getting it wrong'.. is always good.

With a touch of the wide-eyed 'But surely....' where necessary

It's a sign of the somewhat-improving-times that they didn't haul you in for re-education, but got a bit worried and are looking for 'legal' advice - wrong profession, as borntobequiet said, they need medical not legal advice!

Well done, OP. Legal advice! They are obviously terrified that one of the Elect is going to kick off.

Well done. OP. It's given them something to think about and legal advice may actually help rather than some other possible source of advice.

Or checking the "Be Kind" advice policy document which is probably over 900 pages long
Be a while

Would now be the time to reveal that this is an educational establishment?

I think that is a pretty poor example to be honest. Menopause for women covered in six sentences. And the first people mentioned in the following five paragraph section dedicated to trans/ non binary people are men!

More sympathy and concern given to the dysphoria that might be caused to TIW by their female bodies going through menopause than the other symptoms all women are subject too during menopause.

Shame there isn’t suitable a sound effect you could have played to accompany the reverse ferreting! I imagine it as a backwards rendition of the Benny Hill theme tune played on a penny whistle.

Well done OP.

Well done @GrimDamnFanjo !!

But the "legal advice" response is an excuse. The Supreme Court makes it quite clear: for the purposes of the 2010 Equality Act, "transwomen" are men.

If they want to run a mixed sex group for colleagues to discuss menopause, then that's OK. Don't know that any woman would go, mind you, if it meant talking about quite intimate physical & emotional stuff in front of male colleagues.

But a workplace policy under the mantle of the Equality Act needs to adhere to the law: transwomen are men.