Row breaks out over event’s single sex policy: bbc

[WarriorN]

Row breaks out over event's single-sex policy https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8jxek8w8m0o

Worth bearing in mind the TRA/Scotgov argument was to exclude transmen from all women's spaces and services and remove their rights to pregnancy and maternity protections.

I’m glad the concept of stealthing was raised as a point in kcsie.

I can't find anything about stealthing in these documents. Am I looking in the wrong place?

Statutory guidance
Keeping children safe in education
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in-education--2

"Stealth" is such an oddly predatory choice of word from men who want us to believe they're ever so marginalised and vulnerable as they violate women's spaces.

I think jumping on the use of the word "femme" is missing the point.

It was in response to the suggestion that someone who "looks like a man" would upset other women so the suggestion that TM should be included could be problematic.

I did respond to say I thought even if a woman who had transitioned "appeared" masculine, just as TW do not pass, the same for TM.

So if the PP had used the word feminine in response to the suggestion that TM shouldn't be allowed, they aren't talking about only women who look feminine or "femme" being able to attend.

This is a complete red herring.

It was in response to the original suggestion that TM would make women feel uncomfortable and but it was only one post.

Is part of the over reaction because "femme" is more associated with lesbian "butch" "femme" role playing that used to be common at one time. Or worse going back to the sort of Anne Lister "lesbian" were the idea was a woman with "male" attitudes would be same sex attraction. And also proposed in the dreadful Well of Loneliness. And I think Daphne du Maurier also though along those lines.

(Slightly off topic I once saw a woman who was with some man wearing a tee-shirt saying butch on the streets, femme in the sheets. I did wonder at the time whether that was more for her, or in fact more for him.)

How are you using or understanding the word "stealth".

It is now legally classified as an act of sxual violation of a woman by a heterosexual man.

People are allowed to object to cult speak and to be jaded from endless attempts at manipulation by bad faith derailers.

It what way is it "cult" speech.

And anyway, the comment was about women not having to be "femme" in response to an earlier comment which assumed trans men would all just pass as actually being men.

So in fact was making the point you agree with.

As I said a total red herring.

The issue is can or would a woman who has not just socially transitioned but has undergone surgical and use of drugs to transition then be experience by vulnerable women as being in the presence of a man.

That is the issue.

I think this is all mostly theoretical. I doubt there are many, if any, women's group that have trans-identified women attending. They are committed to being perceived as men, why would they attend a women's group? It's fine if sisters heal want to be open to trans-identified women, but I doubt they will get any turning up.

At the end of the day it's up to sisters heal to set their own policy on eligibility. But I am tired of the fact that women's organisations seem to be held responsible for nannying everyone. Whether it's men in dresses who call themselves women, or women who have taken drastic steps to alter their appearance to the point they are perceived as a threat by traumatised women, why is it always women picking up the pieces? I sympathise with the fact that many trans-identified women have been motivated by sexual trauma but we have to balance everyone's needs and rights. It was their choice to alter their bodies to the point they are threatening to women and they have to accept that some limitations will come with that.

I hear you, but space must be held for women who have internalised misogyny, especially as so often it involves trauma responses.

Which isnt to say other traumatised victims must be held responsible for sorting out everyone's problems.

I cant actually imagine a stronger example of internalised.misogyny than pretending one can stop being female by removing breasts and growing facial hair.

I understand what you're saying. I just personally think it's incredibly selfish for a trans-identified woman who knows she looks convincingly like a man to attend a session for survivors of sexual violence. It shows a lack of thought and consideration of the impact that her appearance could have on other women. Again though, it's sisters heal prerogative to decide who can attend and if that is their rule then fair enough. I just worry some women will self- exclude. It's probably a theoretical concern as I doubt any trans-identified woman who had gone to such lengths to appear like a man would want to go anyway.

"Femme" is also TRA-speak, sort of equivalent to "Dolls" as in "Protect the Dolls", or as in "Femme Boys".

It set my alarm bells ringing. The Femme-Butch usage did not occur to me although I realise now that in this context it makes much more sense.

It is also TRA-speak for "passing" and not letting on that you are the opposite sex.

Where I live femme is a pretty common word which is not associated with the TRA movement. Maybe it is different where you live. I actually first learnt the word when I was young and living in France (femme is women in french).

Either way, I will avoid using the word again if people on here see it as a TRA word.

‘Femme’ tends to refer to femininity - cultural and societal expectations - in English.

That is not synonymous with ‘woman’ if you believe woman is just a noun that means adult human female in the same way that a ewe is a female sheep.

I hear femme as in transfemme or transmasc used by the younger 20 somethings instead of TW or TM. The latter are not the words of choice by the young genderists. So I’d probably associate femme with TRAs thanks to the language used by that crowd.

People are making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill over the use of the word. I don't like the word cis but I aint going to have a breakdown if I hear someone use the word (although I would still never use the word myself).

The moment a transman speaks its obvious that they're female even after years of testosterone use as their voice never reaches a male range. The moment you see a transman walk you can tell she's female due to her gate caused by her q angle and ofcourse theirs her shoulder size and shape.
Transmen especially if they were given puberty blockers are much smaller than men and if they took pbs as a child they're shorter than women too.
Basically when you see a transman in the flesh in real life they rarely pass much like transwomen. Though I accept that some traumatised women may find the presence of a transman to triggering but for others it wouldn't. The thing is there's services just for transmen, others for transwomen and ofcourse the women's services are mixed sex as they allow transwomen to join so the mythical passing 6' bearded transman would not be left with no support if they were refused services due to their extreme body modifications (which btw is legal discrimination). A woman's single sex support group can say we will take transmen on a case by case policy, so the transmen who haven't had extreme body modifications can join but those who look luck buck angel (though I personally dont think that she passes when talking, moving or is seen beside other men and/or women) could be excluded. This is backed up by the EHRC interim guidance which was found to be legal by the high crt

YMMV.

I was one of the posters who reacted to the word 'femme' I took it to be the English word 'femme', which is pronounced as it looks in English, not the way the French word for 'woman' is pronounced.

My experience is that when I'm in the French-speaking world, 'femme' simply means a woman.

When I'm in the English-speaking world, 'femme' means exaggerated, stereotypical 'femininity', and something which I thought had faded into the mists of time...

I realise now you just meant it as 'feminine', and I'm sorry for reacting to your post as I did, PeachyDaisy.

Yep, much easier to deal with the tiny minority i.e. the passing trans man on a case by case basis, be that handing them on to specialist trans provision, offering a 1to1 service or seeing if the women are OK with the inclusion of a transman (especially if they detransing and therefore will presumably be prepared to stop maximising the 'maleness' of their appearance).
Ultimately this is a much less likely scenario than a female victim who is triggered by a non passing trans women. The TRAs were happy for these women to be without any provision while the passing TM still has the trans provision as an option. And they would be 'outing' themselves by wanting to join a female group so the TRAs can't accuse Sisters Heal of outting them by raising the subject.

Where I live femme is a pretty common word which is not associated with the TRA movement.

Are you in the UK?

I actually first learnt the word when I was young and living in France (femme is women in french).

I first came across it as a child in the "English" expression, "Cherchez la femme" 🇫🇷

A trans identifying woman involved with Sisters Heal is a “pick-me gender traitor”, apparently.

Nice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1rhx144/trans_man_working_with_terf_group_sisters_heal/

Wow I guess I was wrong and some trans-identified women do attend. I can't deny I have some concerns about some trans-identified women attending, mainly if she looks convincingly like a man as it could be triggering for traumatised women attending.

But I still find sickening the way they have spoken about her. She's a rape or sexual abuse survivor looking for help. They can't see past their obsession with trans-identified men being permitted to bring their fetish into traumatised women's spaces long enough to recognise she is a vulnerable person who needed help not some enemy operative. There's one even comparing her to SS aligned Jews.