Row breaks out over event’s single sex policy: bbc

[WarriorN]

Row breaks out over event's single-sex policy https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8jxek8w8m0o

What hope do women in Brighton have with Sian Berry as their MP. See X post calling FiLiA provocative for daring to hold a feminist conference in Brighton.

We've just been discussing Hannah Simpson of the Greens saying Reform being 'divisive' was the cause of the Manchester bombing, on the Gorton thread.

Seems to be a common theme.

What is it with all the name-calling that barely seems to be commented on? TRAs can call people TERFs, transphobes, bigots, and it's seen as acceptable, but get a pronoun wrong accidentally and you're the devil incarnate.

I’m GC but I am a little interested in why they are including transmen. The founder said women are traumatized by the sight of a male bodied person but wouldn’t that including passing transmen?

They are including trans identifying women because they are women. If a female attendee has such a masculine aspect that it prevents the service being offered (a big ‘if’) then I’m sure they will be asked politely to leave. Whatever they identify as. Just as would anyone whose aspect, dress or other personal characteristics interfered with the programme on offer.

Come on people - this is not difficult.

It isn't about appearance, that is a superficial issue.

It is possible, or maybe even likely that a woman who has chosen to transition will have experience male violence as a woman. And so the shared experience of male violence is the basis of the group.

Also, m
More often than not, when women talk about why they transitioned, if not acts of violence by men, but being objectified, means that for many getting rid of their breasts which men have leered atand objectivifed them is a relief.

And not saying I know, but just as many women say that even if a man who has transitioned "sucessfully" ie achieving an a constrcted representation of a woman women can still see their maleness, so as likely that a woman who has transitioned and "appears" male there is likely to be a sense of them as a woman.

And I suspect those organising the event will have a process for ensuring those attending are not creating a negative environment.

ie if a woman who has transitioned chose to swaggered around in an exaggerated male way, or something, they would be asked to modify their behaviour or leave.

I’m only asking as I know some transmen can look very male (unlike transwomen who don’t tend to pass as well). Case in point if Buck Angel decided to rock up can they be legally excluded despite being biologically female.

If Buck Angel was she'd understand because she knows she's a women who's presenting as a man.
She seems to be convincing as a male on the video's on YouTube but how convincing would she be in person, she may not get excluded because she doesn't really pass in real life.

Links
https://terfwatchbrighton.substack.com
https://www.instagram.com/terfwatchbtn
https://linktr.ee/terfwatchbtn
And screenshots of their secure contacts for “tips”.

All very masculine coded with the ‘secret spy’ veneer.

This is a good point and one that must be considered as I once had a discussion with a trans identified woman who had transitioned who was extremely aware that her presentation / voice could trigger trauma if the women around her didn’t know she was female.

I think that any woman who has transitioned and is accessing such support would/ should be aware of this however, and I would hope that this would be transparent and openly discussed.

Of course there have been instances of trans activists pretending to be de transitioned woman to gain access to women and spaces ( EJ has described the kid who put Glinner through the courts as doing this to her and I think other instances.)

Unfortunately we / women running refuges do have to be able to discussed these issues.

Logically speaking, if it is a single sex space then all women should be able to use it regardless of how they present. Saying you must be femme presenting in order to use it means the space is then only for femme presenting females, not all females.

Absolutely. And everyone attending needs to have cast iron trust in that policy.

It’s TRA logic to claim that women’s groups should be set up on the basis of how women present to the world rather than their biological sex.

TRAs are claiming that masculine women are being kicked out of women’s spaces by feminists for not looking female enough, so it blows their minds when feminists actually welcome and include trans identified females in women’s spaces.

Sisters Heal are opening up the possibility of a way back for these women, who may well have transitioned following trauma as a girl or woman.

As long as the individual is open about their trans status and all the women attending are made aware beforehand so it isn’t a shock then I think this is true inclusivity. Not that it doesn’t need careful and sensitive handling but it definitely can be done.

Yes absolutely

"femme"? You might be the first GC person I've heard using that terminology.

The Supreme Court judgment explained this clearly and in detail. You're very free to go and read it to avoid posting silly comments from a position of ignorance.

supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

@tropicaltrance can you explain?

I'm not trying to be provactive but I genuinely don't understand what you are objecting to (and I'm not @PeachyDaisy with a failed name change).

This may well be indicative of my own ignorance around language usage in this sphere as I didn't think the notion that all biological women are welcome in single sex female spaces was controversial.

There has to be a logical position on sex versus gender. And so if we choose to differentiate on grounds of sex, that means that we have to keep trans women out and trans men in.

I was at an event last week where I sat across the table from a young trans man. It was completely obvious that this was a biological girl. I'm sure that in a photo it comes across much more masc.

But this person used the ladies!

In my experience, trans men are much less likely to want/need the props of groups and services to affirm their identity.

So if a trans man turns up, the women would be able to tell it's a woman, I think.

Btw the argument that trans women suffer domestic abuse from men and so should share the women's session makes no sense because lesbians are going to be there too, perhaps ie abused by women, and gay men, abused by men, are not allowed in.

It is a service for abused women. The sex of the perpetrator or gender identity of the victim is not the defining factor.

You also have to not be drunk, not reek of body odour or urine, not wear a morris dacing costume with bells on the wrists and ankles, and a few other criteria. Not turning up looking like Wolf from Gladiators is one of them. It has nothing to do with being trans.

This is not the gotcha you think it is.

I can’t think of any women’s group that has femme presenting as part of the entry criteria. Even Survivors Network in Brighton allows anyone male into the women’s rape crisis groups as long as they have that special woman identity.

Sadly Survivors Network excludes women who identify as non-binary or women who identify as men from their women’s support groups and the TRA groups want nothing to do with these troubled people who have often experienced horrific abuse.

It’s down to volunteers at orgs like Sisters Heal to help these women.

'Femme'?? you think you have to be 'femme' if you are a biological woman?

That's the whole point about being gender critical - rejecting gender stereotypes like butch and femme as necessary identifiers -
dressing butch or dressing femme as a fashion choice is OK, though I think most of us probably happily hover around the gender-non-conforming middle

The idea that you have to dress in stereotypically 'femme' style in order to be a woman is as untrue as saying if a man dresses in stereotypically 'femme' style he is a woman.

It's important for young women and girls who may be thinking of 'transitioning' to be aware of these two things:
Firstly, it's likely that no matter what they do to their bodies, they'll still look like women in stature, body shape, gait etc, so they won't pass as men at all.

Secondly, if they do somehow manage to look more convincingly like men than most transmen do, they may be alienating themselves from women-only environments, where they will cause at least temporary confusion and maybe distress because they look like a man.
In most cases a second glance confirms that it's obvious they are not men, they are women, and are entitled to be in a women-only space.
But it's something they need to be aware of, be prepared for, and understand the temporary reactions they may provoke.

No you have completely misunderstood what I said. I said that if someone is a female then they should have access to women's spaces, regardless of how masculine or manly they may look.

I disagree with anyone on here who says we can have a single sex space on the basis of biological sex and then think it is ok to exclude transmen or gender-non confirming women.

Well, its not just us, that was specifically discussed in the SC judgement. If a woman has made herself look very manly with hormones and surgery she may cause distress to other women. The SC was.specifically talking about rape survivor support context iirc.

Well yes, it's not like you either look genuinely male or you look "femme" and female with no in-between.

Most women probably look just female bodied but from anywhere to butch, masculine, neutral, feminine, a mixture. "Femme" or otherwise doesn't come into it.

My reading of PeachyDaisy’s post was simply that the group were sex based, which correctly includes trans men.

But that trans identified females do sometimes “pass” more than trans identified males. In the context of the quotes used in the article.

I understand the dislike of the term “femme presenting” being TRA speak; looking and sounding very stereotypically female could be read as the more accurate non trans ideological term.