How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

If you had someone at work who insisted he was black but was in fact white, would you play along too?

He isn't really or knowingly doing anything to her.
He's just doing what makes sense to himself and living the way he sees fit.

It is her beliefs and understanding clashing with his that are causing an issue. And one may say that her beliefs are based in truth and logic and of course that's the case. He would say his actions are also held in a deeply held belief, of course. But you frame it as if he is deliberately and with foresight not being a friend by "putting her in a position". That just isn't the case. Did he know she was gender critical? Even if he did know, what would you expect him to do? Not "come out"?

Of course he is. That is the whole point!

So it is ok to infer someone is dick for not going along with a man’s demands that we pretend he is a woman, but deleted if we infer who actually has a dick…

I suppose it’s easy to say you’d stick to your guns when you’re not the one in the situation and are not the one worrying about upsetting someone, no matter how delusional you think they are. My eldest son has a good friend who is trans. A girl who identifies as a boy. They are both 17. She is absolutely lovely. The nicest, sweetest person. I don’t see her very often, so there’s not much concern about saying something that might offend her. My son doesn’t believe his friend is really a boy, but refers to her as he/him when talking about her and is completely comfortable with treating her as a boy. He has also been friends with a boy who identified as a girl and just went with the flow. It made me wonder what I would do if I had to deal with someone I like suddenly identifying as the opposite sex. All the complicated feelings of not wanting to hurt someone, but yet not wanting to be part of the delusion. My son doesn’t believe anyone can change sex, but manages to navigate it all very well by ‘being kind’. He is genuinely a kind, respectful person. BUT he is male and has nothing to ‘lose’ in the sense that he doesn’t have to worry about his rights and safety being potentially violated by incursions into safe spaces etc.

I suppose what I’m saying is, it’s so easy to have ideas in place about what you would do, until it actually arrives at your door.

I didn't imply she was a dick for not going along with his demands.

I simply don't agree with the implication that if he was a good friend he shouldn't have announced a trans identity and therefore put her in this difficult position.

The two positions are independent of each other and each relate to deeply held views and concepts that are directly opposing.

The flip view of this is that if she was a good friend she wouldn't make him feel uncomfortable by using correctly sexed language about him. Which is obviously conflating friendship with a person's beliefs and principles in an unhelpful way.

Which of them should expect to compromise their respective irreconcilable beliefs if only they were a good friend? I would argue neither.

It is not a neutral act to use wrong sex pronouns. It is an act that actively harms women.

Why should women be forced to carry out an act of self harm in order to keep men happy?

Use their chosen name, avoid pronouns, spend more time with other members of the group. Stop hyper focusing on this and don’t involve yourself. If there’s no risk of this person invading your space and going forward they behave respectfully to you just get on with your life.

Some of us have known 'trans people' for decades.

We've navigated the elephant in the room and we have seen people come out the other side who cried 'why did you all lie to me?'

And we know just one slip up can destroy people's lives.

Which is why stepping away is really the only kind option.

Please don't tell people to "do better" in that patronising way. It just gets people's backs up and they then don't listen to anything else you have to say.

The way you speak about trans people is dehumanising. What you aren't acknowledging is that younger adults have been explicitly taught that gender identity may differ from sex, in school. Having been taught this they are more likely to believe it and introspect on it. This does not make them automatically a fetishist or mentally unwell.

And I am against this kind of teaching in school, fwiw, but you can't unteach that generation.

As I said - I work with a transwoman who I do not believe is a woman and I would not want to share intimate spaces with her but that doesn't mean I need to call her a man to her face - there is such a thing with keeping the peace.

I already answered this. If your belief is that the only reason a person may declare a trans identity is because of fetish or mental health issues then our positions are irreconcilable and I can't be bothered to discuss further with you.

You are calling him 'her' on here.

You might need to read 'Pronouns are Rohypnol'. Written by a mumsnetter Barracker.

I think this is what it's going to come down to ultimately.

It's not wrong to be trans and he has every right to take a trans identity if he chooses (of course).

It's also not wrong to hold the position that sex is immutable and people can't change sex.

Neither are wrong but their fundamental beliefs are in conflict.

If they are friends however then hopefully a mutually satisfactory way forward can be found, but it's likely to involve compromise on both sides.

You know, I see so many posts from people on FWR saying that generalisation of all trans women as fetishists "never happens". And yet here it is, and you've repeated it several times too.

My young adult and her close friends have certainly not been taught that sex/gender may be different and they definitely don’t believe it. She is 22 btw

With trans people I am in the

Wear what you want
I will call you the pronouns you prefer
I will call you the name you prefer

But I do not believe you are the opposite sex as it is impossible to change sex and sex matters when it comes to safety, dignity and sex based spaces

I don't think a board game club is a sex based space therefore I would call them the name and pronouns they want to keep the peace.

I don't think my view is controversial

I am not sure what the problem is. You do not have to agree with their standpoint to go with the flow. You are not saving the world in any way by making a big issue of it.

I have a young adult GC who is taking hormones to change their external sexual characteristics. I am concerned for them as I love them, but I have been open and said ... "Look I really don't get all this, but I love you and will always be on your team whatever your choices in life. I will get things "wrong" and address you not in your preferred way sometimes, but it is not with bad intent" All is well and in fact their confidence and happiness has improved enormously. I may not like how they now look, but I like that they are happy.

One important thing to say is that as a person they are still very much there - we still relate to each other in the same way - their personality is very much intact. The younger members of the family have simply taken it in their stride and not batted an eyelid.

If this person wants you to say "she", how does this matter in any way? You know they are not a she but how does it harm you or anyone else to use this if it makes them happy? You could say: "I don't get all this stuff, nor agree with it, but you are my friend and if it makes you happy then that is fine. Tell me how you prefer to be addressed" The fact that you think it is nonsense is neither here nor there. Tell them you are bound to get it "wrong" sometimes and that is just how it is.

I also have an acquaintance who did the whole bit - penis is now in the bin - and frankly they look like a pantomime dame as they have the huge jaw and feet and hands of a male and are very tall. But ...... they are very happy and have been for years. Do I get it? - No. Does it harm anyone for me to address them in the way they prefer? - No.

About language:
As I wrote in the first post, I considered the language issue and decided to post here anyway, because my question was more about exploring my thoughts and possible approaches than about language solution. I'm happy that majority of the posters read the first post and answered taking that into account. Thanks!

In English, using she for a biological man can reasonably be experienced as untruthful, but that doesn’t map neatly onto languages with compulsory grammatical gender.
Interesting take. I'd say we are well aware that some parts of the grammatical genders are arbitrary and some based on the gender/sex/whatever.
Calling a man she feels probably more untruthful though, because you need to take it into account and override the grammar all the time.

A small drip feed, my language actually has separate forms for alive-he creatures (of any kind) and inanimate-he. Yes, only for grammatical masculinum. Our language isn't the most equal one at some points.

My son doesn’t believe his friend is really a boy, but refers to her as he/him when talking about her and is completely comfortable with treating her as a boy.

How does that differ from ‘treating her like a girl’?

So you submit to the demands of a man in order to protect yourself? To ‘keep the peace’? And women are meant to think that is the way we must behave? Submit to men to stop them getting upset?