How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

The OP is using a language where it is not grammatically possible to say that sentence without gender. Where eg “you” is a different word when used to a man as when used to a woman. That is her issue - that her language does not enable the “gender-free” options we have in the English language.

Why though? There are plenty of people with ASD who don’t have gender identities. Perhaps the connection could simply be that those people don’t feel they fit the labels others attach to themselves so think they must be different.

Instead of understanding that you don’t need to fit expectations and by labelling yourself with an identity you are in fact conforming in a different way.

It is a belief about themselves.

And do you not understand how dehumanising it is to women to be reduced to a male’s fantasy of what they think it is to be a woman, and to be expected to go along with that?

I do not feel dehumanised by this at all. I see a fellow human being who in my book is misguided, but I am surrounded by people who also fit that category over many things I might disagree with them over. I don't go out of my way to make them feel uncomfortable.

I agree that it is indeed possible that M to F transitioners have a skewed view of what being a woman is about, but that is their problem and there is no reason why I should feel "dehumanised" about it. Their life: their problem. I am still who I am.

If you assume it's based in fantasy or fetish then your subsequent position, thoughts and beliefs stem from that.

My experience of young trans people does not align with this experience and so my subsequent position differs.

I am constantly surprised at how very little the trans people I know are different personality wise from before they declared their trans identity, how very much they do not dress in fetishised ways.

Why is it only their problem when that fantasy is being taught to children in school as being what it is to be a woman? When that fantasy means women are referred to as body parts even by mainstream medical journals (‘bodies with a vagina’)? When it is being used as a reason why men should ignore women’s boundaries? When we are forced to call men ‘women’ based on it? When female prisoners are locked up with rapist with that fantasy are raped and told by the judge they must call their rapist ‘she’ in court? When children are sterilised , have their IQ lowered aAnd given osteopenia to uphold that fantasy? When women are sacked for failing to uphold that fantasy? When data describing women’s oppression is corrupted by that fantasy?

Of course there are plenty of people with ASD who have no gender puzzlement. But here is an analysis from ChatGPT which expreeesses better than I what I am trying to say:

1. What a “philosophical belief” would imply

A philosophical belief is typically: Abstract Adopted reflectively Culturally transmissible Relatively independent of neurodevelopment Examples would be beliefs about free will, materialism, or moral realism. If gender dysphoria were entirely philosophical, you would expect: Roughly equal prevalence across neurotypes Strong dependence on education, ideology, or explicit belief systems Weak association with early childhood experience Minimal biological or developmental correlates That is not what the data show.

1. What the ASD association actually suggests

Autism is a neurodevelopmental condition with well-established differences in: Sensory processing Interoception (sense of the body from the inside) Cognitive style (literalness, reduced social imitation) Identity formation Resistance to socially imposed norms The consistent finding that gender dysphoria / gender incongruence is several times more common in autistic people suggests at least one of the following non-philosophical mechanisms: A. Neurodevelopmental factors Autistic people often experience: Atypical embodiment (feeling “out of sync” with one’s body) Reduced automatic identification with socially assigned roles Heightened distress when internal states and external expectations conflict These are developmental and phenomenological, not ideological. B. Reduced conformity, not increased belief Autistic people are: Less likely to adopt beliefs for social reasons Less influenced by peer norms Less motivated by social reward If anything, autism is associated with less susceptibility to socially fashionable beliefs, not more. So if gender dysphoria were simply a belief system spreading socially, you would expect lower prevalence in ASD, not higher.

C. Early onset and persistence
In many autistic individuals:
Gender-related distress appears before adolescence
Often before exposure to formal gender theory
Sometimes before strong abstract reasoning is even present
That timing matters: philosophical beliefs don’t usually arise in early childhood.

1. Correlation ≠ explanation — but it rules things out

The ASD–gender dysphoria association does not prove: A single biological cause That gender dysphoria is “neurological” in a simple way That it is immutable or identical across individuals But it does rule out the claim that it is entirely philosophical. A condition can be: Shaped by interpretation and language Influenced by culture Still grounded in non-ideological developmental differences That’s common in medicine and psychology (chronic pain, eating disorders, tinnitus, body integrity dysphoria, etc.).

1. A more accurate framing

A defensible, evidence-based position would be: Gender dysphoria is a subjective experience of distress or incongruence, whose interpretation and expression are influenced by culture, but whose occurrence and vulnerability appear to be partly rooted in neurodevelopmental factors. That is very different from saying it is “just a belief”.

1. A useful question to ask in discussion

If you want a calm but probing response to your interlocutor, you might ask: If this were purely a philosophical belief, why would it show a strong and replicated association with a neurodevelopmental condition characterised by reduced social conformity and atypical embodiment? That forces the discussion back onto mechanism, rather than rhetoric.

In short
Your instinct is sound:
The ASD association strongly suggests there is more going on than philosophy
At minimum, it indicates developmental vulnerability, not mere belief adoption
One can be sceptical about aspects of gender theory without denying the reality of dysphoric experience

Do you understand what a fantasy is? It is imagination. There is no way a man can know what it is to be a woman because it is impossible for him to experience it. He can only imagine ie have a fantasy about what it is to be a woman. And as a man, that fantasy can only be through that lens - a male’s fantasy of what it is to be a woman based on misogynistic social messaging. There is no other way he can form an identity in his mind about being a woman.

A lot of handwaving to to try to deflect from the basic truth that trans-identified men are men, and it's not dehumanising to say so.

If it's not a fetish or a mental illness, then what is it? This is not a rhetorical question.

I probably would not put so much credibility into what an AI generator tells you. Particularly what you have just posted here. In fact, I think your AI gave you an answer that it felt you wanted to read.

That AI has made generalisations about ASD and conformity . I know from having a teen with ASD that to cope with their feeling that they don't fit, they most certainly will embrace something that will fit their feeling of not fitting. My child has always done this.

So, @Mischance (reacting to the long blob) you agree with each other in this point, don't you?

Young ASD people are different through their ND, and they feel they don't fit in many ways, including not fitting into how they interpret what society tells them about being a woman/man.
And that makes them vulnerable, because in the pursuit of belonging somewhere, they are impressionable. It's clear they feel they don't fit, but it's unclear whether the answers gender identity theory are really good for them beyond the artificial short term relief of "they understand me".

I appreciate the dilemma the OP has due to language differences but my reply was in response to a post made by forgotmyusername1.

AI reflects the material it is trained on, not the truth. It is not trained just on peer reviewed medical journals, but on general chat on messaging including activist messaging. It does not assess how correct any of that may be.

Reduced conformity, not increased belief Autistic people are: Less likely to adopt beliefs for social reasons Less influenced by peer norms Less motivated by social reward If anything, autism is associated with less susceptibility to socially fashionable beliefs, not more.

This is the opposite of what I have seen. You just need to look at autistic groups online to see how conformist they are, and how quickly new comers adopt the prevailing belief of the group. You just need to look at the language policing to see that. They might not conform to mainstream fashions but they certainly do in groups they identify with!

Early onset and persistence
In many autistic individuals:
Gender-related distress appears before adolescence
Often before exposure to formal gender theory
Sometimes before strong abstract reasoning is even present

That timing matters: philosophical beliefs don’t usually arise in early childhood.

The concept of a 'gender identity' is philosophically based. It is a belief that you are the thing that you describe yourself as.

I don't believe anyone denies 'Gender-related distress' can come from feeling that you don't fit what you, personally, feel are society's expectations of you as a person of the sex you are. I know that I certainly felt that before adolescence and I had no fucking idea about 'gender identities'.

When you have a group of people who express that they feel like the opposite sex and people then discuss with them with suggestions about them 'really being that opposite sex' even though they are not, there is no need to be exposed to formal gender theory. This AI script is effectively confusing cause and symptoms amongst other things.

The AI script you have posted sounds all great in theory, but it has massive holes that blows your AI generated script apart.

I read that and thought, WTAF!

After going through the diagnosis process recently with my teen, this comes across as making harmful stereotypes that really don't follow the experience.

"Less likely to adopt beliefs for social reasons " - only if they don't believe in those beliefs, otherwise they might well embrace them with fucking gusto! Particularly if it helps them make sense of their world.

"Less influenced by peer norms" - only if they have categorised the norm as being undesirable to them for any reason - they don't believe in it, it is against law or policy or family norms, etc. * *

"Less motivated by social reward" - again, only if that is not a reward that they want. Otherwise, some children with ASD will absolutely be motivated by social reward.

"If anything, autism is associated with less susceptibility to socially fashionable beliefs, not more." - This really seems like stereotyped bollocks.

Here is a rather relevant definition of 'philosophical belief'.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/10/notes?view=plain

The Equality Act says

"The criteria for determining what is a “philosophical belief” are that it must be genuinely held;

be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available;

be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour;

attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance;

and be worthy of respect in a democratic society, compatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others."

I think that believing you have a gender identity and that society should respect this fits this definition of 'philosophical belief' . Although there is quite a few things at play here, one is the belief that a person has about themselves and that then crosses over to the 'opinion' bit where that person has a 'opinion' that society should act in compliance with this identity belief.

For the second time:
It was not calling trans women "men" that I considered dehumanising. That is a factual statement.

It was stating that all trans people are fetishists or mentally ill that was dehumanising.

What is it? A deeply held belief or feeling that one's essence or identity is not aligned with one's physical body in regard to gender and sex, and that this feels so genuine that it often becomes worth risking relationships and families in order to live as one feels one must.

What is it? A deeply held belief or feeling that one's essence or identity is not aligned with one's physical body in regard to gender and sex,

Delusional = holding fixed, false beliefs or rigid, irrational convictions that persist despite clear evidence to the contrary, often indicating a disconnect from reality

Like me repeatedly trying on a size 16 and refusing to buy size 20, preferring those few brands that size generously?

I may be delusional about my actual size but I am not mentally ill.

I understand what you are saying. However, if your belief that you were a smaller size than you materially are and that this shaped many, if not all, aspects of your life, would you not consider that perhaps the delusion has taken on a mental health aspect?

Not really. I just don't think all delusions equate to mental illness.

There are still people who firmly believe DJT is a great president going a marvellous job. I would call them deluded. I wouldn't say every one of them is mentally ill.

I find it disgusting the way you are minimising mental health issues. Do you also tell people you have OCD because you have wiped your kitchen surfaces? Difference of political opinion is clearly not delusion. Trying on clothes that are too small is clearly not delusion. Thinking you are a woman when you are a man is a delusion and that is a mental illness.

No. I don’t see that as a valid comparison.

Whether a political party is ‘doing well’ is subjective. Whether you are size 16 when you are not or believe you are a sex that you are not, these are not subjective.

@Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow

Don't come on here lecturing me about "poor people with mental health difficulties" when you are asserting that these self same poor people you consider to be delusional are, to quote you, "trampl(ing) over women’s rights, st(ealing) our language, s(eeking) to reinforce regressive sex stereotypes, and involv(ing) me in his fetish." These poor people with mental health issues are asserted by you to be so unpleasant that " I could not continue to be friends with someone so misogynistic." You refer to them as coercive and abusing their power. Then you come on here and see fit to lecture me because I assert that not all trans people are fetishists or mentally ill?

If I am disgusting for "minimising mental health difficulties" then you must be an absolute monster for vilifying such people like this.

You can't have it both ways.

What do you think they are basing their delusions on?

What is it? A deeply held belief or feeling that one's essence or identity is not aligned with one's physical body in regard to gender and sex, and that this feels so genuine that it often becomes worth risking relationships and families in order to live as one feels one must.

What is it? A deeply held belief or feeling that one's essence or identity is that of Jesus Christ, and that this feels so genuine that it often becomes worth risking relationships and families in order to live as one feels one must.

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference. You've been conditioned to believe that this particular mental illness has special status.