How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

I think you will probably find the friendship dynamics change massively and if there are some booms it WILL piss people off fairly quickly. Even ones who are very supportive initially. There's only so much reasonable people will tolerate. If his behaviour is unreasonable it will spark an outbreak of discrete peaking.

Personally I think it's a form of incelism so whilst friendly I definitely think a declaration can spell the beginning of the end - it's more than just a quiet 'this is who I am'. I'm only prepared to put up with so much shit and I apply this equally to all friends.

All the recent surveys from the past couple of years show that only around 19% of women are happy to share changing rooms with transwomen. This suggests that the likelihood is that most women in your group don't really think he's any type of woman.

Can you meet up with the women you get on with best in your group and talk to them about how awkward this man is making you feel? He's probably making them feel just as worried. He's relying on making women feel too scared to speak up, so it might help you to find strength in numbers.

You suggested she use "they/them". There's no equivalent in her language.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman

Even just using name will show OP up as a non believer

I manage to avoid this tbh. It's not as hard as you think if you are deliberately avoiding it.

So it was never about safe spaces but a wish to condemn?

Just acknowledge you aren't the persons friend ...that's all thats needed

As in they went trans during the friendship? I guess I'd probably keep 'misgendering' them at first but would get used to it. If they were trans from the start I'd just call them by the pronouns and name they said they had. I wouldn't want a TW in a women's space though or in women's sport.

More like, the trans person is expecting everyone to go along with their new religion and go against their own beliefs.

Imagine you're a Christian, or an atheist, and one of your friendship group converts to Islam. Then, every time you meet up, your friend demands you join them in Islamic prayers, and repeat Allahu Akbar after them.

Who is the unreasonable one here?

Sounds like a well reasoned position. I’d love it if you came back in a few months and let us know how the strategy has gone!!

Not sure how you're reading that? I think it's quite clear that if this man with a new identity of transwomen is a reasonable non abusive human, then OP will have no issues?

OP is understandably concerned that they might not be reasonable. Transgenderism isn't a new phenomenon (although the movement is far, far more misogynist now than it was when I first encountered it) so it's also understandable that OP might seek advice from other women who have had similar experiences? OP's fear is not unfounded, as modern trans activism's current misogynist slant unsurprisingly attracts misogynists.

Women share information amongst ourselves about men and their behaviour. It's a survival tactic. We have probably been doing that forever.

?

I would use the name he choses for manners but that is it. If he tries to impose himself in the ladies' with me or any other women, he can piss aff. My tolerance is zero these days. Have an ex Trans "friend" . They just ask for more and more and he was a right nasty piece of work to his wife and children, so he is no longer my friend.( His ex wife is doing well; finally free from that narc 🤣). Just my experience. Had similar with another man(workmate) who identified as a woman. All about their needs.

This!

I don’t understand why you are making such a big deal - they aren’t asking you to change gender yourself

Always judge someone on their behaviour not their identity.

If you wouldn't tolerate the behaviour from anyone else why should you tolerate it from someone trans.

I've said this for many years.

The problem is the sheer number of transpeople who end up displaying unreasonable and unacceptable behaviour because they think that being trans gives them a free pass.

It does not.

Respect is a mutual thing that must be earnt not given away in a one way transaction.

Em I wouldn't call someone The Most Holy Sunflower as it's not part of my belief system 🌻🌻🌻

You're right in one respect, it's not about "safe" spaces it's about single sex spaces.

I would distance myself from any man who trampled over women’s rights, stole our language, sought to reinforce regressive sex stereotypes, and involve me in his fetish. I could not continue to be friends with someone so misogynistic.

Imagine you're an atheist and your whole fucking society and culture is built around Christianity and the power/influence of the Christian church... oh wait, I don't have to imagine that. For me religion and trans are similar in that it's just too much of a tidal wave of delusion for me, one piddly little individual, to push back against every day of my life.

So I will smile and nod a lot, in the same way I'll smile and nod at a 4yo boy who tells me he's a dinosaur. I'll even play along and roar back at him, but I won't let him bite me.

You don't need to believe in me, because I'm real. Now bow to me, feeble human!!! 🌞

Thanks for the next batch of comments.

I like the gender identity and religion analogy. Both can be done with understanding it is your personal world view that others don't have to share, or bull style.

I agree that respect and politeness should go both ways. Some posters suggest that it would be polite to use chosen name and or grammar. I'm wondering now - how should it work in the other direction? What would be polite from the TW's side? Does they need to know about my beliefs to be able to behave politely to me? If yes, should they ask?

I really hope this person will be the more reasonable case, going mostly with enhanced self-expression without the more troublesome ideas, like planning to enter female single sex spaces just because they said so. As I said earlier, in this group it might be a non-issue, friend's living room doesn't come with single sex spaces, so it is mostly about what he choses to say.

For Fruit and Anya
I wouldn't say I'm making a big deal of it, I used this online space to organise my thoughts before we meet in the real life with the intention of not blowing things up unnecessarily. If you read my updates, I'm planning the very opposite of big deal.

This is a difficult one because English isn’t a gendered language. In your shared language presumably every or many nouns are male or female, which is largely arbitrary and refers to grammatical gender rather than sex as objects don't reproduce!

Because of that, I don’t think many of the usual arguments on here really apply. In English, using she for a biological man can reasonably be experienced as untruthful, but that doesn’t map neatly onto languages with compulsory grammatical gender. You might get more useful responses on a forum in your native language.

If you’re uncomfortable, my advice would be to delay raising it for as long as you reasonably can, ideally a few months, once you’ve seen them a few times. They’re likely to be extremely anxious and emotionally raw after making this announcement. Raising it early could feel like personal rejection and may upset them, and you could also face criticism from the wider group.

Of course it may be hard to do that if gendered grammar is everywhere. Perhaps think of a few personal pleasantries that don't require gender!

Some posters suggest that it would be polite to use chosen name and or grammar. I'm wondering now - how should it work in the other direction? What would be polite from the TW's side?

It is not polite to demand other people pretend you are something you are not, to adopt the means of women oppression to define yourself then steal our language so we are no longer able to describe that oppression.

I am GC and we have a trans woman at work
I refer to her and about her by her chosen name and pronouns
I do not believe she is a woman and would not be comfortable sharing a changing room with her but it doesnt mean i have to be deliberately provocative about it

In the interests of the group i would refer to her by her chosen name and pronouns to keep harmony but have a line e.g you dont want to discuss gender politics

You can be GC without being a dick about it

In English, using she for a biological man can reasonably be experienced as untruthful, but that doesn’t map neatly onto languages with compulsory grammatical gender.

Is this really the case? (Genuine question, as I’m basically monolingual.) It’s always struck me as odd that e.g. the French for “beard” is feminine, making “grammatical gender” essentially arbitrary. But surely personal pronouns in French do not come across as arbitrary in the same way?