"A woman who is trans"

[AllThisFuss]

I've been noticing this terminology creeping in. Just thought I might highlight it, so we can keep up to date with their ever-changing attempts to control language and muddy the waters. Have you seen any in the wild?

IndiaWilloughby
‪@indiawilloughby.bsky.social‬
Not a mention of the woman who’s trans, who did nothing wrong. This ruling is in direct conflict with the Gender Recognition Act. How is this happening? It is wrong on every level, and will be used to push trans people even further out of society and into danger

Or that women are more than a pair of boobs.

Im a menopausal woman im not on HRT.

Given that my hormone levels will be lower than a trans identifying man, what toilets do I use since that trans identifying man seems to think it’s those levels that determine what toilet you use. Anyone?

Let's see what Turtle believes taking estrogen changes physically in a male person....

This is irrelevant. It is not scientific.

How can a trans identifying man be on hormone replacement therapy anyway? A man never had that mix of hormones to start with!

I think we have seen this from the slew of male posters in the past. This is literally what they think when one of them writes 'development of female sex characteristics'...

Then also is the ridiculous claim that their bodies now have the same hormone levels as female people, so they 'must' be female people now.

And all with the complete and utter ignorance of just what female breasts do vs male breast tissue.

It is also like the whole 'I have a vagina now' when the cavity inserted in their groin is in no way a 'vagina' regardless of the label they have claimed for it. It is fucking offensive to make these claims and they never understand why.

I really want to type a comparison but it’s crude so I shall refrain.

Imagine thinking that boobs was all that was needed to signal that someone was 'female'. I hate to say it, but I know quite a few men with moobs. I think they would be hugely surprised that they are women now.

It really comes down to that very question that never gets answered:

What is the exact difference between a male person who takes hormones for a medical condition and has no penis or testes due to disease or injury and one who elects to have extreme body modification to fit their identity?

It's noteworthy that @ThatOpalTurtle is not interacting with the other trans-identified male that has posted on this thread. It's biological women he wants, not the 'new-fangled' type.

Indeed. TroubledWaters has given some advice grounded on experience.

They know this. Isn't that why they refer to oestrogen supplements as "titty skittles"?
Everything else is surgery.

I would suspect like a mixed sex changing room, it does not quite provide the right frisson.

When you start hearing teenaged girls refer to 'titty skittles', you know that a generation of young female people have been fucked over by misogyny. The despondency I have felt hearing my teens female friends referring to 'titty skittles' as if it is all just a laugh is deep.

That is when you realise how fucking huge this issue really is.

Huh???

It's our genes & chromosomes which determine our sex.

I tried! I thought they got quite introspective around page 10 and might start to reflect, but we seem to be back to the previous antics now.

It's upsetting to me that people will judge me based on all the other trans people they encounter, but it is what it is. I can't blame people for seeing a trend, certain traits do seem to be prevalent amongst the TW population sadly.

Just on this, without arguing against your wider point at all: it does in some cases measurably affect hand and feet size, and indeed for me I do have before/after measurements of a measurable change in foot length.

measurements of a measurable change in foot length.

I used to wear a size 38 shoe in my 20s. Now, in my 60s, I sometimes need a size 42. Our feet spread & lengthen with age.

@TroubledWatersTW I tried! I thought they got quite introspective around page 10 and might start to reflect, but we seem to be back to the previous antics now.

He is a male interacting with women who are saying 'no'. The behaviour pattern is old as time.

How much of that is ligament tightening and fat / muscle change?

I doubt very much that the proportions of your hand and feet bones has shrunk. That would be hugely concerning and a major and significant negative side effect. However, your other tissue could be changing. For instance, have your hands changed shape? Do they resemble female hands and wrists at all? Also consider the difference in skeletal proportions in the arms where male people have longer bones so the joints are not quite in the same position as female people.

The point is though, and I know that you understand this Troubled Waters, is that when you put all the male body cues together, even after hormones, even after surgery, there are still male body cues to allow people to correctly identify male people's sex correctly.

Mine too.

I also cannot get my wedding ring across my knuckles even with less muscle / fat around my knuckle. It is a sign of ageing.

Yes absolutely, it won't be the bones. No idea what does it, I'm no biologist, but I know I lost 2 UK shoe sizes over the course of a year or so. I've seen various theories online about how it happens. I knew it could but was honestly most surprised it actually did.

Indeed, I agree with your wider point. Due to support groups I've met lots of TWs at this point, and even as a male I feel I can definitely get an "eye" for those cues.

I’ve been think a lot over the last few days and I’m not sure how I’m feeling about all of this.

I’m curious how you came to your position. I’m assuming you have/had dysphoria and transitioned to try resolve that. Are you really okay describing yourself as a male or a man? I know it’s what we are, but you seem to feel very comfortable with that fact

Having engaged with you previously TroubledWaters, I think it must be very frustrating for you indeed. But I also remember that you have found your way through while being able to also maintain a perspective on what is materially real and what is philosophical theory.

I have found that we have had several female person with a transgender identity on this board over the years and they are similarly grounded in reality while understanding that society does not see them as being male. However, they have worked out a way to navigate it all. Similar to you, they are not out to 'gotcha' the women on this board discussing the issue and how they are impacted. They very much also seem to be very knowledgeable and not prone to believing misinformation.

ThatOpalTurtle has no desire to speak to another trans identified man. To quote, they want to be ‘the only gay in the village.’

Where’s the fun, the kick, the thrill when you’re not the centre of attention? You want it to be about your ‘journey’ and how because you’re so good at passing (coughs) all those close to you think of you as and call you a woman, and you’ve had some surgery, you want your medal and your golden ticket into the ladies.

Every argument on here basically boils down to the same thing: no, f’ck off you’re a man. It’s no more complicated than that, but we have to endlessly justify it and our apparent lack of kindness.

I keep thinking of Robin Moira White, the lawyer. Now he really is a hulk of a man, massive hands, thick set jaw and brow, feet like canoes. I once heard him say ‘I’ve worked hard on my transition’ when discussing using female spaces. Have you Robin? Ah, that’s nice, come over here, I’ll get a ladder and pat you on your huge head with your Margaret Thatcher hair do.

So Robin wants the reward of breaking the law and invading our spaces. He also said he wouldn’t use third spaces as they were ghettos. Some people just can’t stop saying the quiet part out aloud.

Could just be weight loss. Feet spread with weight.

Or y'know, cramming your feet into lady-shoes 😉

(Not actually joking, by the time we hit our twenties, the friends who only ever wore and trainers had very different feet shapes to the ones who wore dressy shoes and heels. Their toes spread much wider)