Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

I keep missing your replies, it's so fragmented talking to this many people! This is an interesting perspective & I'm glad I know more about who I am talking to. Hope that doesn't sound condescending! I don't engage much with online discourse anymore, I realised that the negativity & division was shaping my thoughts & opinions & I think that's unhealthy. I can see that saying 'it doesn't cause you pain' is unfair & I was being reactionary. I'm sure you aren't particularly interested in sharing any more of your experience, but, I can assure you that taking your perspective into account is beneficial for me. It's part of the difference of experience that I would be a hypocrite to deny.

Compelled pronouns piss me off.

I am profoundly deaf. This is not a feeling or a state; it's an observable reality that I've had since birth. I cannot opt out of it.

I get around it with lipreading, closed captions (in online meetings) and a lot of notetaking. I still miss things and I rely heavily on visual cues to make up for my hearing loss.

When people start refer "he" to "she" or "they/them", it makes group conversations for me impossible to follow. It's a visual disconnect on top of the lies and cognitive overload. I know it's also a problem for visually impaired people who work off voice registers and autistic people who struggle with social cues.

Oddly enough, no-one ever thinks about the disabled impact, even though there's more of us.

What would acceptance look like for you @ForProudPinkPombear ?

'Per Capita' is what matters here.

A trans woman is just as likely as any other man to commit a violent crime.

This is wholly unsurprising, because trans women ARE men. Both legally under the UK's Equality Act 2010 and according to Science.

So a woman is much more likely to be assaulted by a 'cis man' (i.e. a man who accepts/knows he's a man), than a 'trans woman' because there are many, many more of them to potentially commit male violence.

Saying this group of men is so small in number that it's safe to let them in women's spaces is the silliest nonsense on stilts.

Particularly when this 'small group' includes some men who dress up as women for erotic purposes. So are likely - on a per capita basis - to be a greater danger to women and girls than the average man, as some will be acting out a sexual fetish in a confined space where other users are vulnerable.

Everyone should feel and be safe. Agreed. So it's wholly unacceptable to make a very large number of women and girls both feel and be unsafe, in order to benefit and prioritise a very small group of men.

Women's rights, safety and consent are not yours to give away. Thankfully the Law agrees, all trans women MUST be excluded from women's spaces. Because trans women are and always will be men.

If by " their reality" you mean an acknowledgement, or awareness, of the reality of someone's sex, you need to be aware this is a universal reality the world over. It is going to be tough if you don't.

If they are referring to your sex, it's not 'their reality', it's just a neutral observation. It's no more personal a detail than your height or age.

If they are making gendered assumptions, then the only thing you have to fight that is discrimination law, and that requires a definition of sex.

Also, people will make assumptions about you all day long based on your appearance, how you speak and many other factors. We can't control that.

I would caveat, that this is an anonymous forum, so people on this thread are responding to what you say, and not making assumptions about you or your sex beyond what you have stated.

For all I know any or all of you could be long distance lorry drivers called Keith taking a break on the M1.

Am sitting here wondering this too. Aside from DH going out to work and me logging on to write/study/research, we operate identically - we both drive considerable distances ferrying the kids or to work/conduct daily chores, we both garden, put the bins out, take crap to the tip, cook (DH from scratch, me less so), clean (though I now have a wonderful cleaner, so we both do less of this), we both live in trousers/jeans, wear flat shoes, walk the dogs, decorate (mainly me, actually), assemble flat pack-furniture (again, mainly me because anything Ikea adjacent transforms him into a grumpy arsehole). He uses Clarins moisturiser having nicked mine, I rarely wear make-up these days and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have worn a skirt/dress in five years. We both love the theatre, classical music, live gigs, the arts, travel, our kids.

The only obvious difference between us is that he likes all forms of sports (just tennis really for me), I have long curly hair (but so does my 17yo DS) and I like a good G&T when he prefers a good beer or ale. [ETA… he obviously has a penis and I have boobs and a uterus, of course… but it’s not about the genitals, is it?]

At which point am I womaning to his manning? Or is he womaning to my manliness?

Some things are material fact.

im in my 50s. I can’t identify out of that. I can do a lot with make up and filters. But biologically I’m still the age I am.

im also not 6ft tall. Material facts. I’m short.

that’s not a value judgement it’s facts.

Oh god. This again. Wilful ignorance. 😴

This.

Because they are men.

Yes I think people who identify as trans should be included in everything & should have the same employment, education etc opportunities. It shouldn't make any difference to those things. I would be appalled if I heard that someone had been refused a job due to them being trans & wouldn't support that

There's certain situations where sex matters eg places where female sex are in a state of vulnerability or undress & privacy, dignity & safety would be compromised by members of the opposite sex (regardless of how they identify)

It gets blurred when people with a trans identity believe that they have changed sex which is of course impossible.

@KoalaKoKo

we should take time to talk to people who are different to us and learn about our differences, in doing so we may find that we all actually have a huge amount in common.

I think that is a wonderful sentiment. Something that you may or may not appreciate is that people on this board are quite used to posters coming here, making accusations implied or explicit, then leaving. That can be a bit unfair on genuine fair minded people who want to learn and share.

So a bit of a test, if you like:

What would you say you have learned about people who take a different view on trans issues than you? Are there things you think they (we) get right, or motivations you can admire? How much time have you spent finding the common ground, and what did you discover? In finding the common ground, where have you shifted your perspective or beliefs, and where do you think they have shifted theirs?

100% not. That ex teacher who dressed up as an admiral was prosecuted yet we are supposed to accept men dressed as women in the loo's. No thanks!!!

No worries, it doesn't feel condescending 🙂

In return, I hope you'll believe me when I say I'm sorry to hear about your painful struggles with the whole female stuff. That must be horrible. I struggle too, obviously, but it's not so painful for me.

I'm sure you aren't particularly interested in sharing any more of your experience,

On the contrary, feel free to ask anything if you so wish. I'm not easily bothered.

I think mostly. I have a lot of friends in various 'groups' if that is the right word - gay, lesbian, trans, drag queens, but admit I do have trouble keeping up with all the growing diverse communities.

I know 2 people who have had gender reassignment surgery - both girls to become males. I have no issue with it.

The only part of this that I can't be on board with is how men who are now women are competing in sports and how the likes of various jobs, including actors, are being affected by men going for roles that are written for women. It's compromising other's chances - women's chances. And I do think there has to be an upper age limit for people to make a final decision. You cannot be mature enough at the age of 12 to make that decision, even if you feel it. And I'm not sold at all on gender neutral toilets, simply because in my experience men are disgusting and leave such a mess when they go.

But you are forcing your reality on me, one in which your need to continuously insist, what you perceive to be an absolute truth, is more important than just saying, ok, we don't agree, I'll stop beleaguering you. If your male child said they were female & it upset them & caused them distress if you insisted that they were wrong, would you continue to do it? Or would you try to understand them, avoid causing further upset, keep them safe from harm but also uphold their right to their perception of reality? There are, of course, hugely important & impactful issues in the whole debate, but individual flexibility helps everyone. If I started to say that you have to believe what I do, I would be wrong. Of course I know I have a female body. I am also not female.

I thought it was sarcasm.

Do you mean shuts up when a man enters women only spaces? No, I am not inclusive.

I don't demonise any of them. I just don't think that "gender affirming care" should be available on the NHS. If they genuinely believe that they are the opposite sex, any treatment to align their body with that belief must by definition be cosmetic. Let them pay for it themselves. There is enough pressure on the NHS.

Did you say you work with trans young people @ForProudPinkPombear ?

A nice Genoa goes down a treat.

They absolutely do. People are trying, data itself is misreported, age groups present & report differently & at least there is some progress there. I rely primarily on lived experience & the reported experience of others, because there is less likely to be bias, agenda or misrepresentation.

Forgot to add, my best gay male friend announced on Saturday that he is going through the menopause.

You don't speak for everyone. Don't let your passion cut you off from sources of solace. Don't be the source of the fear. It's so easy to slip into that, we have so much more to gain by finding out what binds us rather than what divides is