Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

I believe the following - you tell me if Im "trans inclusive" or not:

• transwomen are men.
• transmen are women.
• non binary is laughable nonsense - what we used to call "personality".
• no one has ever changed sex.
• you may well believe you have changed your "gender" but this does not mean you have changed yours sex.
• "Gender" is another word for harmful sex stereotypes around human behaviour & roles. Performing gender does not change of alter you sex in anyway.
• We have single sex spaces for good and valid reasons.
• Women want, need, deserve, single sex spaces away from all men including men with a trans identity.
• There is no such person as a "trans child".
• ROGD is real and especially harmful to girls who tend to be susceptible to social contaigen.
• ROGD can be mapped on a graph & it almost directly correlates with the rise of smart phones & social media.
• The men who REALLY REALLY want into womens spaces are the men who REALLY REALLY need to be kept out of womens spaces.
• Language capture that eliminates sex specific words is horribly sexist and dehumanising - it is typically targeted towards women more than men.
• The default human tends to be male - so if you don't seggreagate by sex men become default humans and women disappear - for example in data.
• If you allow certain men into womens spaces bad men will expliot this to harm women & children - they often will claim a trans identity. This harms everyone.
• No one has established how we can tell the difference between a "real transwoman" and a bad actor who is pretending to be a transwoman.
• there is no evidenced based compelling argument to divide spaces by "gender" rather than sex - it doesn't make sense, is completely unenforcable & its a huge nonsense that will harm women & girls, and benefit sexual predators.
• "C*s" is insulting bollocks.
• our sex is observed in utero and can be observed from conception. No ones sex is "assigned at birth".
• everyone should be able to wear what they want to wear (within reason/public decancy etc) & live their lives freely without harrassement.
• I know quite a few transmen - they have beards & other side effects of T, dress in "mens clothing" etc. I see them 100% as women. They are women. I can't make my brain lie to me & even if I could why would I?
• Our embodied sex is important to all of us, even people with a trans identity. We ignore this truth, or disguise our sex at our peril.
• I have no obligation, need or desire to affirm anyones "identity" - identity is personal to each of us, and looking to society for any form of identity or affirmation is a receipe for disaster. Dont do it. Really no one cares. Hrsh truth but the truth nevertheless.
• Trans activists seem to be very violent, intolerant & oppressive especially towards women.
• the transing of historic people, especially women (& Kurt Cobain), fucks me off immensely. Usually taking no account of the historical conditions women were living under that caused them to disguise themselves so they could attend university, fight in war etc, they were responding to harmful controlling gender stereotypes designed to limit & control womens lives rather than being evidence of a trans identity.

I don't think transpeople should be exluded from anywhere that other people of their sex aren't excluded from.

The Supreme Court pointed out what feminsts have been saying for years - if you allow any men into womens spaces it becomes a mixed sex space, womens spaces are erradicated in a world where women want and need space in society away from men for very good well evidenced reasons.

Don't you realise that if transpeople respected the few sex based divisions & provisions we have in society, that women want and need for safetly, dignity & privacy, that all this so-called "trransphobia" and "trans exclusion" would disappear overnight?

Why do so many transwomen not respect womens single sex spaces?

Why is no one campaiging for all men to be welcomed into mens spaces? This would be a lot more effective than trying to shame the world into believing a lie - this is not an effective longterm strategy.

There are many transpeople who will agree with all or most of the above statements.

Hmm, think a definition of tranphobic is also required. If one is going to dick about with the definitions of words one has to define them within context, that's what post-modernism actually demands. Also hate. If people can't do post modernism properly, and can't see how one woman may indentify as a man in the context of how she does x,y, and z, but in the context of psychiatric care putting her in with the males is downright dangerous then they should stop it.

Also, muddling the personal with the political, over and over and ove, policy and law doesn't tend to be made on the grounds of my nice trans identified male friend, and if it is it bloody well shouldn't be. And that does not include women who get so exasperated that they end up disclosing personal details of trauma because it gets to the point where one thinks that that might be actually listened to as evidence when all other evidence is being explained away by trying to drag women out of the context within which they wish to discuss their rights. (if anyone can see where to put a comma in that last sentence I salute you!)

I also salute those women who disclose their trauma and despise those that push them to feel it is necessary, but it does highlight nicely how little some people care.

I completely understand and accept that trans identifying people exist. I’ve said this before on here.

What I don’t understand is why their feelings trump mine and no one can explain that to me.

also. The law is clear in the UK. Why are these trans identifying individuals not expected to obey the law?

True. I'm non-binary & wish I'd had the language to express that when I was young; I still feel it's a simplification of how & who I am. The reasons for me saying I am are complex & will be different to others who choose to use those words. I only hope acceptance & study of experience continues to progress, we are battening down against the storm when we should be discovering & freeing ourselves

I was pretty GC until my daughters friends started coming out as trans to each other but not their parents. For some reason they all collectively decided I'm a safe adult to be open about it with. Calling a couple teen girls he/him harms no one. But I don't support medical transition for children.

Great post @RobinEllacotStrike

I just wish the people who need to read it most would read it, digest it and engage with it. But they won't.

Yes - but with some exceptions that the only trans people i know agree with (no medicalised intervention for children, thoughtful approaches to single sex spaces that fit neither extreme position.

What a dismissive, badly written & inaccurate reply

Yes, I am. I'm not trans, and I see transphobic comments every day on here, and don't understand how anyone can think that's not oppressive.

I think most people would put there hands up if it just means not demonising trans people.

Have absolutely nothing against trans people and very happily friends with, work with trans people etc

For me, the questions about everyone’s safety - so when you’re talking about public spaces that’s what I’d be looking at. I think the whole debate shows that we need to look again at how we use and divide public spaces as a whole.

It’s not as simple as saying “TWAW/ TMAM” or saying “not they’re not” on the other hand.

It’s very clear to me that the question is different depending on what aspect of life you’re discussing. Toilets are different to prisons, which are different to sports, which are different to just how we speak to and about people in conversation. It’s not one easy fix.

What the debate also shows is that at its core there’s a subsection of society who are mostly male and who everyone needs to be protected from, ie violent criminals. Including other men!

Appropriate user name

Feel free to report transphobia. MN are quick to delete it.

however I suspect by transphobic you mean thinking Transwomen are men right? If so that’s reality and a protected belief in law. HTH

What transphobic comments do you see?

Can you please tell me how you think I’ve been transphobic? I’d really like to understand.

I have a trans child and am trans inclusive in that I support people's right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone. However I also support women's rights to feel safe. I feel there has to be a way forward but it should be slow and measured and thought out.

Provide one, just one (1) example of Mumsnet being 'transphobic'.
NB: women saying we need our sex-based rights and spaces for safety, privacy and dignity is not 'transphobic', @RamALamADingDong2 , unless you are willing to admit that removing our very HARD WON sex-based rights, spaces and protections that our foremother feminists fought for, is femphobic and hatefully misogynistic. Back yourself. Go on, back yourself. Tell us how rape survivors, DV survivors, and various female victims of trauma as well as girls who need privacy and dignity changing is wrong. Back yourself. State your case.

Heck, so I'm a trans inclusive terf then. I don't demonise the trans community. I just don't think twaw or tmam.
Same way I don't believe in god, and I believe in secularism, but it doesn't mean I hate or demonise religious folk.

Could not care less. People are people. One of my daughter's best friends began transitioning while they were in school and a very good friend's daughter, also.

I can't tell if you are being serious

People. An be as different as they like. They just need to use the facilities determined by their sex. HTH

Everyone is non-binary, so we must all be trans inclusive.

I am trans-inclusive in the sense that I know, like and respect several trans people - ranging from an old friend to a favourite teacher, from a colleague I like and admire to several of DC's friends, and the children of my friends. I will use the pronouns and names they choose. I believe they have the right to be who they are and live as they choose. I am vehemently pro LGB rights, and recognise that without concerted effort to accept people who are other than the mainstream, they can too easily be targetted or isolated. I don't dislike or judge anyone for being trans: I like or dislike people for who they are. I certainly don't think I have any right to dictate how they live.

But as a feminist I feel fairly militant about not passively accepting men's rights to self identify and then dominate women's sport or access vulnerable women in hostels, hospital wards, prisons, health clubs, public toilets. I fully believe that a large number of profoundly perverted men have jumped on the legitimate trans bandwagon and am disgusted by how the trans community and nearly all official bodies have shown zero respect for the rights and needs of biological women. I think it has revealed a disturbing, almost gleeful misogyny. Trans rights have finally given people a freedom to express the misogyny they've had to pretend they didn't feel since first wave feminism.

I also know we can't change sex and that gender is a social construct that we need to challenge not pigeonhole. So, for me, the trans people I know are adopting a role, not a sex. We all adopt roles in life, and that is fine by me. It doesn;t mean they actually are the opposite sex. It means they lean naturally, heavily towards presenting in ways that society would typically attribute to one sex not the other. Why shouldn't they? I have zero problem with that (though I have a problem with certain qualities being connected to a given biological sex, But that is not the fault of trans people - that's a social issue we should all challenge and change.

And I strongly believe that a lot of teenagers with quite normal and transient pubescent feelings of body dysmorphia and /or gender/sexual orientation confusion have been funnelled into seriously questionable medical transitioning when they are too young to decide. I expect the backlash on this to be tragic.

I will never ever pretend that a man is a woman because he wears a frock. I peaked when Sarah everard was murdered and the Guardian - on the front page, next to news of her murder, had a piece by Eddie 'Suzy' Izzard, saying he gets such a kick from turning on men who wolf whistle him and growling at them in a big deep voice. He thinks he is a woman. But he has the male privilege of being able to size up to other men at even the slightest hint of them trying to assert dominance. Sarah Everard didn't have that privilege or option.

So yes, I certainly don't dislike or dismiss someone because they are trans. I care deeply about several people who are trans. I support their right to live as they choose and I accept how they present in the world. And that support extends to transpeople I don't know, as long as they are not violating the rights of biolgical women in the process.

But anyone who tries to classify me as transphobic simply because I want to debate some of these tricky and brazenly misogynistic and controlling aspects of the transcommunity's rulesheet, rather than be a passive good little girlie woman and do as I am told and shut up - well I will call out that misogynist crap forever.

Pro trans.
Anti misogyny.
If this remains a battle on which one has to take sides, I will always fight against misogyny.

PS I call my child by their preferred pronouns, as does everyone else in their life, but I do remember how biology works and do not believe they can mystically become their preferred sex. They can however do what they want to their body and live however they want to.

Ultimately though the way forward will fall on one side or other of single sex spaces.

You can protect people's rights to single sex spaces.

Or you can let some people access opposite sex spaces on the grounds of gender identity (thus nullifying other people's rights to single sex spaces).

When it comes to single sex provision, it's a zero sum game.

You will definitely be in the minority on here. IME almost everyone on MN believes all trans women are pervs and sexual predators who get a sexual kick by dressing as women. What do you mean exactly by trans inclusive anyway? (Apologies if you’ve explained this, I’ve only read the first page of posts)
I would consider my views mixed and complicated. I’m sure I’d get hate from both sides of the debate for my views! I’m a lesbian and it pisses me off that gay people have been lumped in with the trans rights movement when sexual orientation and gender identity literally have nothing to do with each other. I believe that transsexualism and gender dysphoria are real but it affects a tiny, tiny proportion of people. Nowhere near the amount of people who actually identify as trans. I feel sorry for those people, who I believe have a right to get gender reassignment surgery on the NHS, use the gendered spaces that match their new gender and be seen and respected as their new gender. However, if it was limited to those genuine cases of true transsexualism then there would be no public debate about it, no media coverage and no one would really care (or realise) because the numbers would be so small. Pro-trans people would love to call me a bigot for saying this (and I know it’s complicated) but I’d want & expect a trans woman using female spaces to have had surgery to remove their penis. I don’t believe penises ever belong in female spaces. I also believe in biology and don’t believe anyone can physically change sex. If an adult truly suffering from gender dysphoria wants to get surgery to look and feel like the opposite sex then I have no problem with it and I will treat them as the sex they present as. But they need to go all the way. What I’m 100% not ok with is “trans women” sticking on a dress and some makeup and thinking that entitles them to use women’s spaces. I’m not ok with men with autogynephilia being accepted as women, not ok with self-ID, not ok with trans women in women’s sports (even true transsexuals who’ve had full surgery)

My biggest issue though is the fucking non-binaries and the social contagion of young girls identifying as trans because of how revered masculinity STILL is in our society. I have a 7 yo DD who’s very much a Tom boy (although I hate that word, unfortunately it’s still the best way to describe it) and it terrifies me that she’s being conditioned to think that she can’t be a girl who loves football, getting muddy, and climbing trees. She must instead be a boy or be non-binary. It’s absolute BS and causing extremely regressive gender stereotypes. Why can’t we just accept the sex we’re born into and break the mould of what it means to be a girl or what it means to be a boy?! Those people would be the true brave pioneers, not girls who give up on being a girl at the first hurdle!

Another very worrying issue (not so much in the UK but in more conservative countries) is gay people transitioning because they think it’s the only way to be accepted by their families & society. It’s been reported that in Iran 70% of people seeking gender reassignment surgery are homosexual. The whole trans movement is deeply sexist and homophobic in my opinion.