Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

But empathy is a case by case thing surely. I don't see why there would be blanket 'empathy' without knowing the details of individual situations.

I havent read the whole thread, but would say that the people and institutions who were fully inclusive and put that poor, traumatised young woman/transman in a male psychiatric ward were certainly not 'keeping them safe'

Keeping safe is about real risk. Keeping safe is not about using the right pronouns. In retrospect I am sure they would rather have identified biological sex correctly, that have had what subsequently happened play out.

So, I will welcome my daughters friends, whatever they are calling themselves. I will speak politely to human beings as individuals, but when it comes to the things and the times when it makes a difference, biological truth wins out 100%

Spell it out for us, then. Explain why when someone who is indisputably male says 'I identify as a woman' that suddenly makes it OK for this person to be in women's sport with the benefit of all the extra strength, height, large muscles, heart and lungs, narrow hips and so on that comes from going through male puberty and which are hugely advantageous in sport. Women's bodies are incredible and very complex. This is because female mammals have to be able to gestate their babies inside their bodies, give birth and then produce milk to feed them. Consequently we need all sorts of body parts and systems that male bodies don't need. Their physical energy can go into growing tall and strong. Even a mediocre male athlete long past his prime will be physically stronger and faster than an elite female athlete. We can all see that children need to be able to play sport separately from adults, to keep them safe and give them a fair chance of winning. The same goes for older adults and people with disabilities. Why is it suddenly OK to ignore everything we know about how bodies work and about how to keep people safe when it comes to males competing in female sport?

I saw that quote too. It's excellent analysis.

I think we have lost any sense of robust moral and evidence based frameworks to make decisions for society. All we know seems to have are 'feelings', which are not enough to balance the complex needs of all.

I am happy to include trans-identified females in female spaces, and I am good friends with and work alongside trans and non-binary people who I actively enjoy spending time with and think are beautiful human beings (same as my Christian, Muslim and Jewish friends even though I'm an athiest). Do I believe they have actually changed their sex? No.

I would call this board anything but "insipid'. I see it as passionate and engaged and populated by people who have been deeply involved with this issue for many years. People who care about female people and about children, about their rights and protections, and who don't necessarily accept as absolute truth every passing trend in the field of mental health

OP - are you including the AGP's as trans?

They have to. The AGPs are as trans as the rest of us.

😂

What a load of absolute garbage

🤪

If you’re not including AGP’s as trans, how are you excluding them and how do you know you’re excluding them all? What’s the exclusion based on, objectively?

Interrupted in the middle of the above. That's not to say I agree with all your points above, or the conclusions drawn.

I honestly find your argument confused in some respects: for example, it seems to acknowledge that we need data, but also to suggest that data relating to trans individuals offending in certain contexts can only ever be inadequate due to proportionate population size - but also, meanwhile, that other, unrelated minority groups which vary in their own evidenced offending rates should be used as a partial justification for trans "inclusion"? I can't see the relevance of this, particularly if, as you seem to argue, purer data and precise equivalences are preferable.

The fact is that there is no perfect equivalence or neat equation, and never will be. But if we do go with the numbers as they stand, as long as 1) a high proportion of women are victims of sexual assault (this won't change), 2) a woman's perception isn't secondary to a male's, with his internal sense of self outweighing her recognition of him as biologically male (this is, after all, what is being demanded of women, and it's deeply, appallingly wrong), I will support single-sex spaces. Not least because, given the numbers involved, there are also alternative measures we can take to protect the trans minority that don't require women to sacrifice their recently hard-won rights. We should be advocating for these. We did it for women, we did it for the disabled, and it's now time to do it for the trans population. Arguments like yours seeing women compromising as preferable to seeking solutions that suit all hamper and delay progress on this.

Unless, of course, trans-identifying males are seeking validation more than access and safety, for which there is also fairly extensive anecdotal evidence. In which case, I feel more strongly than ever that so-called "trans-inclusive" arguments denying women single-sex spaces established to enable their equal participation in society are fundamentally unethical.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't hate trans people. I don't want trans people to be hurt. I don't want anyone to be hurt. No trans person should be attacked or assaulted or refused a job because they are trans. I don't want trans people to be hurt or suffer discrimination. All I want though, is for female only hard won spaces, the oppressed sex class, to retain those single sex spaces. And I genuinely don't think that's unreasonable. I really don't. If people think it's unreasonable for me to advocate for female only safe single sex spaces, state your case. State your case for why our foremother feminists achieved these things for the female sex for nothing, and they wasted their time. But I don't see how anyone can justify stripping womens hard won sex based rights and spaces.

There's one major problem with this statement. "You don't have to be completely in support of everything". No, actually when it comes to trans rights activists you are either completely in support of everything they say or you are guilty of literal violence and are fair game to have all manner of insults thrown at you.

To answer your question: I am happy to treat everyone with basic respect and courtesy. I am also happy to accept the choices any person makes about their physical appearance, be they male or female bodied. I invite you to make your own mind up as to what that makes me.

I don’t know anyone who "demonises the trans community as a whole". Nearly everyone is happy to let trans people live however they want to, as long as they don’t try to take away the rights of others (e.g. the rights of girls and women to single-sex spaces, opportunities, awards, etc.)

I'm "trans inclusive" in the sense that I welcome trans identified women into women's spaces for their safety and dignity. I do not welcome men into women's spaces, though.

Ah bless the 1+n debate.
Whats your number?

How many women and girls can be harmed?
How many must we turn a blind eye to so you can base that as an argument of allowing men into what should be female only spaces?

What is your number?

my darling daughter is trans and I love her with all my heart and soul.

do I agree with everything said by the pro/anti trans communities, no. I do believe the issue is used to cause division and decent by the far right and far left.

on a human level, please be kind. Behind that trans label is a person.

This pretty much sums up how I feel - I don't have any religious beliefs but respect those who do, though I don't understand it and I also respect those who identify as a gender different to the sex they were born with. I have trans and non-binary colleagues and acquaintances and feel sad for them at the current hostile environment they face.

There needs to be carve outs for issues such as prisons and elite sports, but these are specific and do not impact on most people's daily lives, where I have no issue with accepting people as the gender they are most comfortable in.

What does be kind look like for you?

Aw bless. You think this is just about loos?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15461027/amp/Transgender-man-raped-male-psychiatric-hospital-ward-court-hears.html

Well crimes committed by men who call themselves women have been recorded as crimes by women, so stats are unreliable anyway. What is clear is that almost half of the men in prison who identify as women, are there for sexual crimes.

Transwomen are women, transmen are men 🏳️‍⚧️

And this is why I welcome trans identified women into women's spaces. Their safety is vital, and it's horrifying that a group of people could be so captured that the "identity" of a person who was unwell enough to not have capacity, was put ahead of their actual safety and wellbeing.

Yeah, just mindlessly repeating this makes it true 🙄

You understand that crimes by transwomen are being recorded as being committed by women yes?