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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #61

882 replies

nauticant · 08/01/2026 19:40

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 60: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5461133-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-60 16 December 2025 to 8 January 2026

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
HildegardP · 21/01/2026 03:36

@MartySupremeisascream Your original point was fair but the departure into conflating certain universities with judicial incompetence was a reach at best.
Kemp went to Aberdeen, BTW.

Ancestress · 21/01/2026 04:55

I was on previous Peggie threads as a Nebulous, one of many. I've decided to go with something more, ahem, elite, to use one of the thread words du jour.

The errors in this judgment are bad and certainly call Kemp's competence into account. I expect the EAT to criticise these errors and his misuse of the slip rule in an effort to correct the judgment. I also think there is a very real possibility that the EAT will find that the tribunal was biased. - @prh47bridge

I'm really looking forward to the wording in the EAT judgment about Kemp. Oh to be a fly on the wall in the EAT Judge's chambers/on the Panel WhatsApp Group when they discuss how to word it.

No 1: "Can we not just write that he's an utter arsehole? That should be a gender neutral enough term for the bastard's liking.

No 2: "I think we should write 'OUR SINCERE THANKS TO JUDGE KEMP FOR THIS' with an explanatory footnote at the bottom: "thank you so much for causing us a fuckton of work, enough sodding press scrutiny to last fifty professional lifetimes, and evil eyes from unpleasant ladies-with-penises and battle-weary lesbians alike".

No 3: Best we just put "it appears Judge Kemp was confused" ... then copy and paste that ad infinitum.

MeltedSunshine · 21/01/2026 07:43

We need the best lawyers and barristers to be judges - the elite of the profession. Too often these days we are too focused on diversity at the expense of skill and knowledge. We dumb down in order to reflect society rather than look for the best. I remember a post about a politician with learning disabilities as if this was a good thing - we need the brightest in these positions. People able to take in huge amounts of information and make sense of it quickly, who realise when something is missing or wool is being pulled over their eyes. Who won’t just listen to the loudest voices but who are curious.

CarefulN0w · 21/01/2026 07:45

Hmm. I’m also overdue for a name change, @AncestressI wonder if JudgeKempwasconfused might be available?

nauticant · 21/01/2026 07:58

NebulousSupportPostcard · 20/01/2026 23:36

Do we know the timescales for the appeal process?

I think I read somewhere that Sandie is 'technically' still employed by NHSFife, which sounded to me as though she is on paid leave. I am wondering if she will be able to return to work at any point, or if it will be difficult to maintain her NMC registration if she is unable to do the minimum hours required over the years that the tribunal process could run to?

Using the Forstater case as a template, from the decision at (first) first instance to the hearing at the Employment Appeals Tribunal was nearly a year and a half.

But that was its own case. In this case the judiciary might view Kemp's judgment as such a stain that it needs to get to a hearing relatively quickly. Alternatively, it's such a nightmare that there might be a reluctance to tackle this ghastly mess and there might be some dragging of heels.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 21/01/2026 08:06

Has there ever been a situation of a union refusing to take the case of one of their members and then when their member wins, siding with the employer before the Darlington Nurses?

As I've said so many times, transgenderism makes everything pointless. The unions - now utterly pointless.

MeltedSunshine · 21/01/2026 08:14

Shedmistress · 21/01/2026 08:06

Has there ever been a situation of a union refusing to take the case of one of their members and then when their member wins, siding with the employer before the Darlington Nurses?

As I've said so many times, transgenderism makes everything pointless. The unions - now utterly pointless.

Edited

I think it was Jo Phoenix who said her union sat with her employer during her tribunal.

Ancestress · 21/01/2026 08:27

CarefulN0w · 21/01/2026 07:45

Hmm. I’m also overdue for a name change, @AncestressI wonder if JudgeKempwasconfused might be available?

Grin
Ancestress · 21/01/2026 08:39

nauticant · 21/01/2026 07:58

Using the Forstater case as a template, from the decision at (first) first instance to the hearing at the Employment Appeals Tribunal was nearly a year and a half.

But that was its own case. In this case the judiciary might view Kemp's judgment as such a stain that it needs to get to a hearing relatively quickly. Alternatively, it's such a nightmare that there might be a reluctance to tackle this ghastly mess and there might be some dragging of heels.

Forstater isn't a typical example because Covid happened between the ET judgment being published in January 2020 and the EAT hearing in April 2021.

Most are heard within 6months usually. However at the moment there's a backlog. The Peggie EAT hearing is IMO likely to take at least 2 days, because it's complex ( aka a mess) so probably not as easy to schedule in as most EAT hearings, many are 1 day only.

prh47bridge · 21/01/2026 08:48

Shedmistress · 21/01/2026 08:06

Has there ever been a situation of a union refusing to take the case of one of their members and then when their member wins, siding with the employer before the Darlington Nurses?

As I've said so many times, transgenderism makes everything pointless. The unions - now utterly pointless.

Edited

Yes, it has happened. For example, there was a case a while ago where an employee was injured in an accident at work and was dismissed a year later on the basis that his injury meant he couldn't do his job. His took his employer to court, but his union refused to help on the basis that their solicitors did not think he had a reasonable prospect of success. He won his case against his employer and then made a professional negligence claim against his union based on them providing inaccurate information to their solicitors and failing to provide their solicitors with all relevant information. They settled out of court.

In these cases, the unions involved may be safe if their solicitors have been given all relevant documentation, have then conducted a proper assessment of the cases and concluded (albeit wrongly) that the various nurses did not have a reasonable prospect of success. However, if they are operating a policy of refusing to support employees when they face issues with their employers due to GC beliefs, they are likely to be in trouble.

nauticant · 21/01/2026 08:51

Thanks for the clarification@Ancestress. It looks like something has caused my memory to have blanked out the Covid period!

OP posts:
Binus · 21/01/2026 09:04

It would be incredibly interesting to know what legal advice some of these unions have had.

MeltedSunshine · 21/01/2026 09:09

The problem is would you trust the solicitor allocated by the union if the union had been forced to give you one? They might not be outright working against you, they might be chosen because they are just not very good.

ProfessorBinturong · 21/01/2026 10:40

prh47bridge · 21/01/2026 08:48

Yes, it has happened. For example, there was a case a while ago where an employee was injured in an accident at work and was dismissed a year later on the basis that his injury meant he couldn't do his job. His took his employer to court, but his union refused to help on the basis that their solicitors did not think he had a reasonable prospect of success. He won his case against his employer and then made a professional negligence claim against his union based on them providing inaccurate information to their solicitors and failing to provide their solicitors with all relevant information. They settled out of court.

In these cases, the unions involved may be safe if their solicitors have been given all relevant documentation, have then conducted a proper assessment of the cases and concluded (albeit wrongly) that the various nurses did not have a reasonable prospect of success. However, if they are operating a policy of refusing to support employees when they face issues with their employers due to GC beliefs, they are likely to be in trouble.

Refusing to represent is one thing (and sometimes justified). Putting out public statements in support of the other side's arguments is quite another.

Wackdemmoles · 21/01/2026 12:04

Let battle commence -- (from the Courier)
from the Courier)
Sandie Peggie backers demand public probe over NHS Fife tribunal ruling as blunders blamed on staff member
A campaign group backing nurse Ms Peggie’s fight against her employer say further investigation is needed after 12 corrections were made to the decision.
By Sean O'Neil
January 20 2026, 1:46pm
Share5comment

Nurse Sandie Peggie alongside Maya Forstater (right) and Margaret Gribbon outside the Scottish Parliament at Holyrood. Image: Andrew Milligan/PA Wire
The campaigners backing Sandie Peggie in her trans tribunal fight with NHS Fife have called for a public review of the ruling after judiciary bosses blamed judgment blunders on an unnamed staff member.
Sex Matters slammed the excuse given by Judge Susan Walker, president of employment tribunals Scotland, who claims to have investigated suspicions Artificial Intelligence (AI) was used to draft the document.
Twelve errors have been corrected in the ruling by Judge Sandy Kemp since its release on December 8, including bogus quotes from a case involving Sex Matters CEO Maya Forstater.

NHS Fife tribunal judge Sandy Kemp.
Judge Walker said she had investigated complaints that generative AI had been “improperly” used by Judge Kemp and concluded it had not.
The tribunal chief blamed the source of the “erroneous” quotes involving Ms Forstater’s case on an unnamed “judiciary colleague”.
The results of Judge Walker’s investigation were only made known in a private letter to Scottish lawyer Ewan Kennedy who had raised concerns about the use of AI in the ruling.
‘Undermining trust in the legal system’
The blaming of an unknown individual for the bogus quote has sparked calls for a public review of the judgment.
Ms Forstater slammed the outcome as “not good enough”.
“Judges hold one of the most respected and responsible positions in the land,” she told The Courier.

Sex Matters chief executive Maya Forstater.
“By blaming these mistakes on an unknown colleague, Judge Kemp is ducking personal responsibility while undermining trust in the legal system.
“Claimants are seeking justice, not watching a game show.
“They do not expect judges to phone a friend.
“As the tribunal president, Judge Walker should not accept this as a satisfactory explanation.
“A proper review should be undertaken with names and facts reported in full to the public.”
Sandie Peggie appeals ruling
The investigation by Judge Walker came to light as it was confirmed that Ms Peggie would be appealing the ruling on the three grounds.
Each relates to a different variation of the judgement due to the corrections that have been made.
NHS Fife nurse Sandie Peggie. Image: PA.
The Glenrothes nurse won a partial victory over the health board after the tribunal found she had been harassed by in the aftermath of a changing room row at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.
Ms Peggie had got into an exchange with Dr Beth Upton, who was born male, over the trans doctor using the woman’s changing facility.
She was suspended as a result while the health board conducted an investigation.
All claims against Dr Upton were dismissed by the tribunal.
The judiciary has refused to comment any further.

Sandie Peggie -v- Fife Health Board and another (judgment and summary) - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Case number: 4104864/2024 Employment Tribunal, Scotland 8 December 2025 Before: Employment Judge A KempTribunal Member L BrownTribunal Member C Russell Between: Mrs Sandie Peggie -v- Fife Health Board(First respondent) and Dr Beth Upton(Second Responde...

https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/sandie-peggie-v-fife-health-board-and-another-judgment-and-summary/

Wackdemmoles · 21/01/2026 12:08

Meanwhile, Wings over Scotland's Stuart Campbell has written to ET President Susan Walker
Yelling at the tide
Posted on January 21, 2026 by Rev. Stuart Campbell
We figured someone had to at least try.

So in the light of this, we’ve sent a letter.
———————————————————————-
TO: Judge Susan Walker, President, Employment Tribunal (Scotland)
Dear Madam President,
I read with considerable dismay and alarm your response to a recent complaint from a Mr Ewan Kennedy regarding the conduct of Employment Judge Alexander Kemp in the case of Peggie vs Fife Health Board and Dr. B Upton.
Like Mr Kennedy, my concern is not with the judgment itself, which I am aware is subject to appeal, but with the specific content of the judgment, and in particular the much-publicised presence of a number of entirely fictional quotations from previous cases, which Judge Kemp used to form key aspects of his decision.
The explanation issued by your office in response to Mr Kennedy’s complaint is deeply troubling. It states:
“I am satisfied that Judge Kemp did not use generative AI in drafting the judgment. It is clear from my enquiries that the source of the erroneous quotes from Forstater and Ashers was an exchange of correspondence between Judge Kemp and a judicial colleague.”
His Majesty’s Courts And Tribunal Service can surely not consider “a big boy did it and ran away” to be an adequate response to such a grave matter. While not a legal expert, as far as I am aware it is unprecedented – I am unable to find a single example in recorded history of a judgment containing multiple entirely fabricated citations – and questions therefore arise which urgently require clarification.
(1) Why was Judge Kemp consulting a colleague (who had, presumably, not heard the evidence in the case) at all? What expertise could they bring to bear that he, having read and heard all of the evidence, could not?
(2) Who was this colleague? If the judgment has been significantly affected by someone other than the person whose name it is issued in, how can accountability and transparency and public trust in the judicial system be served by that person remaining anonymous? How are people to discern whether that person may have a conflict of interest, particularly given the ongoing political issues and sensitivities around this case and this topic more generally?
(3) How much of the judgment was the unnamed colleague, not Judge Kemp, actually responsible for or exercising influence over? If they fed him false quotations, what else did they tell him?
(4) Most importantly, how did this anonymous colleague come to produce these fabricated citations? Because clearly it is no more explicable or acceptable for he or she to have invented them than for Judge Kemp to have done so. If you are satisfied that Judge Kemp did not derive them from generative AI, are you equally satisfied that the anonymous colleague did not? If they did not, where did they come from?
It surely cannot be satisfactory for the public to be dismissively told that these highly significant and consequential quotations simply materialised from thin air.
Either (i) they come from cases other than those they were attributed to (which seems unlikely, as the quotes themselves were replaced in the subsequent versions of the judgment, rather than the citations being corrected), or (ii) they were produced by AI, or (iii) they came from an unknown third party and were not checked by Judge Kemp, or (iv) either Judge Kemp or the anonymous colleague invented them themselves.
Since any of the latter three explanations, and in particular (iv), would be extremely serious, it cannot be just left hanging as a possibility, for it would reasonably cast the integrity of Judge Kemp at a minimum into doubt, and even the entire judicial system, should it be seen or believed to be the case that the matter was being whitewashed.
It is also not clear from the response on which grounds the complaint was rejected. Section 6.1 of the complaints policy lays out the following possibilities:

Grounds (a) to (e) and grounds (g) to (l) seem obviously not to apply, leaving only ground (f), which would be consistent with this passage from the response:
“I do not consider that it supports a proposition that making a mistake in a judicial decision, whether an error of law or an error of the kind that has been identified in this judgment, can be – without more – deemed judicial misconduct”.
But the Guide to Judicial Conduct says as follows:
There are three basic principles guiding judicial conduct:
• Judicial independence
• Impartiality
• Integrity
To have used entirely fictitious citations, provided by an unnamed party and not checked by the tribunal judge, in coming to a judgment which was likely to prove controversial no matter what the decision, and in the knowledge that that decision was likely to be subject to intense scrutiny, must surely place any judge’s integrity and impartiality in question, absent a satisfactory explanation of how those fictitious citations came about. “It was a regrettable error” is at once a statement of the obvious, and manifestly inadequate.
As such, then, I respectfully request that your office either:
– provides greater clarity on who Judge Kemp corresponded with, what was said in this correspondence, and what the ultimate source of the fabricated quotations was,
or
– reconsiders its decision as to whether the fabrications amount to judicial misconduct.
I look forward to your response in the fervent hope that it will go some way to restoring public confidence over these events.

https://i0.wp.com/wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/para61.jpg?ssl=1

Ancestress · 21/01/2026 12:22

nauticant · 21/01/2026 08:51

Thanks for the clarification@Ancestress. It looks like something has caused my memory to have blanked out the Covid period!

Ha, you're welcome. Something has caused my memory to blank out lots of things - and that something is (Long) Covid. Sigh.

BezMills · 21/01/2026 12:23

Wings is off on one there, in a good way. Belter of a letter.

MarieDeGournay · 21/01/2026 12:32

BezMills · 21/01/2026 12:23

Wings is off on one there, in a good way. Belter of a letter.

Would you go so far as to say 'Well that's Judge Susan Walker, President of the Employment Tribunal (Scotland) tellt?😁

Wackdemmoles · 21/01/2026 12:40

MarieDeGournay · 21/01/2026 12:32

Would you go so far as to say 'Well that's Judge Susan Walker, President of the Employment Tribunal (Scotland) tellt?😁

Will she will farm out the writing of her response letter to
a) Chat GTP
b) India Willoughby
c) NHS Fife's resident squirrels?
I plump for c) because they have time on their hands before they draft the Trust's defence to the appeal and they have a great sense of humour

KeepupKardigans · 21/01/2026 12:41

Curiouser and curiouser. I am eternally grateful that greater intellects than mine have taken time to explain the intricacies of this perplexing case. It only makes me more determined to follow this case until credible and creditable explanations to past and future conclusions are forthcoming. Nothing less is acceptable regardless of whether I approve outcomes or not. Justice must be done openly and fairly.

MyrtleLion · 21/01/2026 12:45

Wackdemmoles · 21/01/2026 12:40

Will she will farm out the writing of her response letter to
a) Chat GTP
b) India Willoughby
c) NHS Fife's resident squirrels?
I plump for c) because they have time on their hands before they draft the Trust's defence to the appeal and they have a great sense of humour

Maybe the gerbils at the Bluestocking could help?

They couldn't be much worse as AI has written...

In a wood-panelled meeting room borrowed from the hospital’s old admin wing, the lawyer gerbils are helping.

They have brought clipboards. They have brought highlighters. They have brought an unshakeable belief in process.

The NHS Fife squirrels sit at the table clutching a draft letter, tails twitching, acutely aware that they are trying to respond to something sharp, political, and unforgiving while being advised by mammals whose entire legal strategy is “soften the tone and add a paragraph on context.”

One gerbil clears his throat and suggests replacing a direct sentence with “It may be helpful to note that…”
Another proposes a footnote. A third insists on a footnote to the footnote, “for robustness.”

The squirrels exchange looks. One of them has already underlined the problem in red: this is not a situation improved by more hedging.

The gerbils mean well. They always do. They rearrange clauses, remove verbs that look too confident, and gently slide in phrases like “misunderstanding” and “regrettably”, as if these are protective talismans. Every time the squirrels try to state a fact plainly, a gerbil coughs and says, “From a risk perspective…”

By the end, the letter is twice as long, says half as much, and has been declared “very safe.”

The squirrels thank them politely, gather up the drafts, and leave.

Once outside, they immediately start again from scratch.

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #61
Wackdemmoles · 21/01/2026 12:50

That's a beautiful story, Myrtlelion, and probably mainly true❤

BezMills · 21/01/2026 12:52

MarieDeGournay · 21/01/2026 12:32

Would you go so far as to say 'Well that's Judge Susan Walker, President of the Employment Tribunal (Scotland) tellt?😁

Aye I'd say for sure he's tellt her! Whether the Judge will "tak a telling" remains to be seen!

I'm not overly optimistic but the ballistic missive from enthusiastic amateur Wings (no disrespect intended to the guy at all) could be useful in clarifying matters for professional journalists to do some actual work on this.

Shedmistress · 21/01/2026 12:56

They wouldn`t let it lie

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