How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Honestly, I think this is what the current tantrum is all about. She has realised she has nowhere to go.

In the few short years I've been browsing MN, I have yet to see one GC person give one millimetre or entertain any fair compromise. It really is the home of extremists on this issue.

What compromise? Giving up our legal rights and all spaces that belong to women whenever some man fancies taking them off us? I don't think so. Funny how women not wanting to get undressed in front of strange men is extremism but it's fine for men like the disgusting one in the video circulating on social media to do what they want.

Once again, there is no 'compromise' to be found on the issue of single sex spaces.

Either they are or they aren't. There is no in between option available. As soon as a man - any man - is allowed in these spaces, then the are no longer single sex.

This issue has been so eye opening to me as to how awful some people's behaviour can be.

Yes, I'm a MONSTER! Off to kick some more puppies! 🤣

You are LYING about Taztoy, which you and your bullyboy mates think you can get away with because the thread was deleted. She was just as vile to me as you are. Vicious, vile, nasty, cruel, remorseless, shameless, inhumane LIARS, the pair of you. I know one thing: Next time, I'm going to screenshot all the things that are said to me. I challenge you to do the same. We'll soon see who the cruel liars are when it comes up again and who was vile to who.

But what if we are LGBT people? Are you trying to silence LGBT voices? How homophobic of you

@SoftBalletShoes are you going to explain to us, which has been asked many times, what you think is so 'hateful' about women standing up for their legal rights?

Your "compromise" is completely unworkable. It assumes that women, including rape survivors, will feel confident asking a man who is in their space for his certificate. It requires men to carry the certificate everywhere.

Can you think of why a rape or DV survivor might struggle to stay calm in the presence of a strange man in a changing room? Can you think of what a challenged man opening his handbag might be reaching for instead of a certificate?

But it's not just the logistics of it (though I agree with everything you've said here).

It's the lack of justification. These men have not changed sex, so on what grounds would we let them into our single sex spaces? We might as well be debating the same thing for red haired men named Dave. Why grant one group of men access and not another?

More gaslighting and DARVO from you. Instead of doing the decent thing and apologise, you lie and accuse others of what you do. You really have no shame, and no humanity to others.

Actually, @ThatBlackCat, perhaps you can tell me what I said to Taztoy that was so awful? Actually, to quote you, "vile and disgusting." I will be able to tell you what was actually said.

I look forward to your lies and to refuting them.

I'm waiting.

There is an idea that all womens spaces are there only because some men are sexual predators.

And if it could be demonstrated that a subset of men couldnt possibly be abusers, its of no consequence if they use womens spaces.

Therefore women are being uncompromising to oppose their inclusion.

The arguments redefines 'women space' as 'safe space' and ignores privacy and dignity. I feel safe alone in a car with men i trust, but i dont want to get undressed near them or even use the toilet in the next stall.

And even if we do decided to redefine the spaces as 'safe' rather than 'women only' the argument that a subset of men could be self identified as non threatening is bonkers.

If everyone could tell who the threatening men were those men wouldn't be able to live as full citizens, they'd be outcasts.

I know TRA need to believe that its possible to be indistinguishable from their target sex, but it isnt. Not at in every situation. So women are being asked to trust that men who self select as trans are 'safe'.

And more than that, we are expected to tolerate this redefinition of 'women' from female to male with gender identity.

Having caught up with the rest of the thread, I'm not convinced as to the "good faith" of a poster who complains about being bullied (When? Or does she mistake "having the misogynist consequences of her luxury beliefs spelled out really clearly" for "bullying"?) whilst calling us "brownshirts".

Lies, lies, lies, lies.

Waiting for you to tell me what was "vile and disgusting" that I said to Taztoy.

Oh! Wait! I think I remember.

It was the post where she wrote a para about the terrible thing that happened to her, and I sent her a string of crying faces followed by a string of flowers and then outrage and a sincerely expressed wish to kill the man who attacked her and to do it for free. Maybe that's the one!

If I've been less tolerant on this thread it's because both of you earned it fair and square from the other thread and also the lies and smears against me on two threads a few hours earlier, and you both KNOW that.

But it's no use trying to use reason. You just talk to me like I'm dirt and always will, because you were doing the exact same thing on the deleted thread when I was being completely respectful and not rising at all to the sustained attacks and provocation.

The thread where I was so respectful and moderate and was showered with insults, smears, lies, and personal attacks was deleted yesterday by MN.

But yes, I'm obviously suspect. 🙄

@SoftBalletShoes are you going to explain to us, which has been asked many times, what you think is so 'hateful' about women standing up for their legal rights?

@ThatBlackCat Come on. Tell me. I'm waiting to know what I said to Taztoy that was vile and disgusting.

Maybe someone else knows? I believe others read the thread. If I was so vile, surely people remember?

The thread I didn't see?

“Both have made it very clear that there is no compromise to be had whatsoever, not one mm, so it will be as one pp said: Eventually these attitudes on both sides will simply die out. Or become less intense as the extremists on both sides age.”

Whoever said that some kind of ‘compromise’ will eventually happen because ‘extremists’ will die out is living outside of reality.

Male people are not female and will never be. There is no time that this will be materially real. So thinking that a ‘compromise’ that involves some male people being accepted as being female is never going to happen. Because it is not possible.

It will not become less intense until no male person demands to be treated by society as if they are female.

Reality, such as that established in physical sciences, cannot be defied at a societal level on a permanent basis.

I've written LOADS on here. Anyway, I agree with what Old Crone said upthread.

I need to know what I said to Taztoy that was vile and disgusting, because I remember not rising to any of her considerable bait and then being outraged at something that had happened to her, and supportive, to which she responded with more insults.

So, either someone is lying or I'm getting Alzheimer's, and I'd like to get to the bottom of which it is.

Still waiting. @ThatBlackCat

How am I supposed to know what you saw?

I didn't see that post either, so do you mind reiterating? What is hateful about wanting our rights upheld?

With going off on one about something completely different.

@ThatBlackCat

Please could you write out some of the "vile and disgusting" things I said to Taztoy, because I have no memory of being anything other than respectful. You are very sure that I was absolutely awful to her, so there's no way you don't remember.