How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Yet you still take the time to post.

The authoritarian and extremist is yourself. You cannot back yourself or answer any questions. Because your extremist position is untenable. You know it, and we know that you know it. It's just cowardice at this point.

Anyone who doesn't pass should have to produce a gender cert if challenged, and the certs shouldn't be issued until they have undergone a medical, social, and psychological transition - including a full course of hormone treatment, if not surgery.

The requirement for medical treatment before issuing a GRC was debated in parliament before the GRA was passed over 20 years ago. It was decided that it was inappropriate and discriminatory to require any medical treatment (particularly surgery) before granting a GRC because some trans people might have other health issues which would make the treatment dangerous for them.

Later cases taken to the ECtHR have reached the same conclusion.

So in the UK and much of Europe, a man can have official ID declaring him to be a woman without any medical treatment whatsoever. All he needs is a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

In practice, it's self-regulating because post-transition trans women look just like women (like the ones I posted upthread here too), are no danger to anyone, and no one bats an eyelid.

What do you mean by 'post transition'? And it's certainly not true that all 'transwomen' look 'just like women', even if a few do in heavily airbrushed photos.

It's also not true that women are never in danger from 'transwomen'. Are you extrapolating from the 'lovely transwomen' you know to all 'transwomen'? This is a bit like saying because your husband is a lovely person who'd never harm a woman, therefore all men are lovely people who'd never harm a woman. It's simply not true.

Women are in no danger from genuine trans women. It's potential bad actors who are the issue

And how do we tell the difference between the 'lovely transwomen' and the bad actors when they all look the same?

It's simplest to have a rule that all males stay out of women's spaces. The 'lovely transwomen' will comply with the rule (because they're lovely people who follow the rules to protect women), so we know that the only ones trying to get into women's spaces are bad actors.

You make very good points. Thanks for such a common-sense reply and refraining from raining vicious insults down on me. (The record in the last couple of days was eight in one post, but usually it's 3-4.)

I think you might be right.

In the few short years I've been browsing MN, I have yet to see one GC person give one millimetre or entertain any fair compromise. It really is the home of extremists on this issue.

Yet generally people on this board don't suggest forced castration, and they do try to keep up to date with the legal framework surrounding the issue.

Very good points and all points that have been made before on this board many times.

If you had bothered to read what I'd written, you'd see that I'm against surgery being a requirement.

Still, never let the facts get in the way of a good lie, eh?

So just the kind of sterilisation that relies on medication then?

Still not legal.

Really? I guess I couldn't see them in among all the vicious lies and insults and jeering and mocking and abject nastiness. Old Crone, by contrast, has spoken to me like I'm a person and not like I'm a vile piece of dirt.

No wonder Nasty Nige has a bunch of fans here. I've never known such an inhuman corner of the internet.

You have been spoken to as you have spoken to others.

ETA: actually I think you have been much less polite.

You seem to be recommending hormone treatment. What do you think that involves?

Just going to throw this out there, but you could try not talking about LGBT people?

Does that include the people on this thread who are talking about themselves?

Women are in no danger from genuine trans women. It's potential bad actors who are the issue.

the “no true trans” isn’t still going is it?
@SoftBalletShoes who decides who is a genuine trans woman
who are you to say Isla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski et al aren’t genuinely trans?

And this is how it always ends.

Ridiculous, false, highly offensive insults. Because you cannot win an argument on your logic.

Its all part of the same men's rights/incel playbook, don't imagine we can't see it.

Calling women far right brown shirts because they stand up for their single sex rights. Absolutely despicable tactics.

Oh the gaslighting and ARVO! Calling us 'extremists' for pointing out that what you want, is not actually possible. Your posts, and the way you have treated Taztoy in particular is vile and disgusting.

No one is talking about 'LGBT' people. We are talking about males in female spaces. Not gay people.
HTH

Women are in no danger from genuine trans women. It's potential bad actors who are the issue.

There's no evidence that women are in danger from men called Dave with red hair either. It doesn't mean they should be granted access to our spaces.

exactly!! #notrueredheaddave!! LET DAVE IN!! he just wants to pee…😭😭

The point, which women have been making for YEARS now is that there is no middle ground when it comes to single sex spaces.

Spaces are either single sex or they aren't. Zero sum.

The genuine compromise solution is third spaces. Which the women on this board have also been suggesting for years.

😂😂😂😂😂😂Calling rape survivors 'extremists' because we don't want males watching us getting undressed is not "measured and respectful". It is hateful, cruel and vile. You're a classic DARVOer and gaslighter, and the lies just pour forth.

As long as you understand the points made in Crone's post, and why your position didn't make sense, our work here is done.

Goodbye.

This has been asked many times already, but once more into the breach.

What do you think is 'hateful' about women wanting their legal rights upheld?