How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

I am just calling a spade a spade here.

Your insistance that biological men are women makes arguing with you pointless. It's like arguing with a Flat Earther.

No, you accused us, me at least, of 'weaponising' it. And I am attacking the male predator and oppressor sex class. No where have I ever attacked a 'minority'.

I haven’t been rude.

Biological reality is that trans identifying men are men. And trans identifying women are women.

We have to live in the real world, where shouting doesn’t mean you get to break the law and remove other people’s rights.

I see Reddit are sending their best again 🤪

men are not women

the answer is no

And we don't give a fuck if that makes men sad

Tell that to the TRA who regularly threaten women with violence, rape and death. They seem to believe this will endear them to women and convince women to give up their sex based rights.

The male sex will always 'eXiSt'. That does not mean we allow them into female only spaces if they put a dress and some lippy on.

It may have escaped your notice, but the female sex exists TOO. And we are not going to let you take our sex-based rights and spaces.

The ‘they’ll rape you anyway’ argument is an argument for mixed sex services, not an argument for single sex services that anyone can use.

I've replied, it's up to you whether you want to keep responding.

Real life isn't The Chase hun. I'm just passing through, not here to be interrogated. Though if you have any on music I'm fair at that.

And we don't give a fuck if that makes men sad

I want this on a T shirt

Please look at my name on the post. You haven’t actually replied to me.

thank you.

I also disclosed trauma and rape.

I find your dismissal and mocking rather strange, given that.

Why have you done that to me?

the RSOH everyone

woman shares her traumatic experience of being raped and asks clear questions about why she should have to share spaces with men. In return she's told off for being "rude" (the horror!!!) and then patronised and belittled

off you go "hun"

I disclosed it here too as well. It has nothing to do with trans people, their rights or my opinions.

I am sorry to hear of your trauma. I hope you are getting help.

You still haven’t answered my questions hun.

Past trauma is no excuse for being rude and aggressive to other people - especially when those people are also survivors.

Despite your belief that you are not here weaponising a group’s trauma, your posts most certainly have from the first on this thread.

Your dismissal of female single sex spaces is fallacious. Based on your criteria, not only is there no place on earth that is a space space, but the glaringly obvious side to that is if female people are not safe in those single sex provisions then neither are male people who have a trangender identity. So, why have any single sex provision ever?

It is also false to exclude the subset of male people with transgender identities from the group of general male population when discussing male pattern crime. There is no evidence that a male person moves from the overall male risk category into a female risk category at any stage of transition. On the contrary, there is evidence that they retain male patterns of criminality when you consider the sub group collectively.

It is a massive safeguarding failure to allow any male person into a female single sex provision above the age of about 8 years old.

It is also a policy that is discriminatory towards all other male people. Because no one changes sex, so if one male person is allowed access as a user of that provision for whatever reason, so must all other male people.

You keep using fallacious points to support your arguments with a huge dose of emotional manipulation.

Please quote where I have been rude and / or aggressive. Thanks.

It's is to with transpeople though. If you want to give men free access to women's spaces in the grounds of their 'gender identity', @Taztoy riggts to her own single sex spaces are destroyed.

How is that right or fair?

I don't owe you anything dude, sorry.

I genuinely hope you get some help, because the cortisol and adrenaline of this place is not going to help anyone recover.

Please talk to some trans people. It's far better than fearing them.

@Taztoy and @ThatBlackCat and all survivors of sexual assault have a right to be angry with anyone who abets and promotes the invasion of women's single sex spaces by men.

Saying that "women have no safe spaces" as if it's an excuse not to protect single sex spaces, is disingenuous nonsense. There are no 100% safe spaces for anyone in the world, but there are spaces which are safer and those which are less safe.

Very little in life and law is foolproof but that's not a reason for making transgression easier. The hardcore minority may not be deterred but the chancers who like their transgressions low-effort and low-risk will think twice. And I daresay even the hardcore prefer an easy ride.

The problem is not just "cis" men. I've seen some of the transactivist abuse directed at women who dare to want a bit of single-sex privacy. Anyone who tells a woman, let alone one who has survived sexual assault, to "suck my girl-d*ck" needs a clip round the lug and should not be allowed anywhere near a women's toilet or changing-room, let alone a women's refuge or prison.

You’re confusing me with someone else hun.

Depressingly, what unites all women isn't biology, fertility or experience. We're all too different to categorise. What we all have in common is being scared of violent cis men, being harassed and assaulted by them. Held up as not being as good as them.

How do "violent cis men" know who to harass when women can't be categorised?

You’re the one calling women rude for refusing to allow men into female spaces and telling rape victims needing single sex spaces that they are “weaponising their trauma”. Why are you so invested in making all spaces mixed sex? How does this benefit women? If males with a trans identity are at risk in male spaces, how will making all spaces mixed sex help them? Surely they’d be just as much at risk in a mixed sex space as a male space, so there’s no point in making spaces mixed sex. Just work on men to be more accepting of men who dress differently. Ooh, you could start classes for men. There’s a good use of your time and energy.

Many of us have talked to trans people. It's why we are 'terf' (or I rather merf).

Talking to males isn't going to change our minds that the female sex needs female only single sex spaces. I am always curious what goes through the mind of the person who thinks a male can change our mind on female only spaces through a conversation....

Well, trans people have been using those spaces forever.

Violent men already have access to female-designated toilets and changing areas. They don't ask permission.

Pretending trans people are the problem is playing into the hands of the far right, who would love to gatekeep femininity.

Transphobia is a tool.of the patriarchy, designed to keep women from addressing the real issue: that violent men attack us wherever we go and usually get away with it.