How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

You do realise the argument is basically about males, and fully intact males at that, in female spaces, right? Trans men are FEMALE. So no threat to us.

Those transwomen (males) can 'ExIsT' as they want, but as they are male, and fully intact male, they need to stay out of female spaces.

It's really that simple.

Well they are men. Why do you want us to all lie about that fact?

Aggression solves nothing? Tell that to yourself who steamrolled on here, mocked us, told us to cope. And tell that to your fellow transwomen and trans activists who threaten to rape, curb-stomp, skin, punch and burn alive women and girls for wanting female only spaces. This is your mob. This is your downtrodden 'discriminated against' trans activist. The aggression is only one way. And you wonder why we don't want these violent aggressive males demonstrating Male Pattern Aggression in our spaces? Look at these. Only 4 out of a folder of over 700 off TRA threats towards women and girls. Look at them. Then you will still wonder why we don't want them in our spaces???

Trans women are a minority, and one subjected to exactly the same misogyny and sexual violence as other women.

Public spaces are not safe. At all. Sex offenders can and do strike anywhere, and pretending they need to dress up first is an insult to victims. Any offender who wishes to access single-sex spaces will simply do it - and wearing a hi-vis, carrying a mop or pretending to be a trans man will be enough to stop him being challenged.

There is only safety in numbers and lockable cubicles for women. And even then, it's relative.

I think we need to confront the reality of cis male violence, not pretend they have a system.

i made a mistake in my last post. You did mean trans women. Apologies.

as an autistic person, I find the language around trans individuals very confusing. That’s why I use “trans identifying” and then the man or woman. Otherwise my brain finds it difficult to parse.

So are you saying “transmen” are minority women? I mean, you’re right. They are women. Saying men are men is not a hostile act. It’s stating the truth. A non cis man is a man. Males are in no way women. HTH.

That’s sadly not shocking, but awful.

Trans identifying men are not women and they are not allowed in women’s single sex spaces.

There is zero, ZERO evidence transwomen experience any abuse or misogyny. Since they are males, they are not able to experience misogyny. In fact, their cosplaying of women, their cultural appropriation of our oppression, their violating of our spaces shows they are the purveyors of misogyny. They literally are misogyny.

Oh no, you do not get to remove 1% of males, re-badge then as 'transwomen', and call them a minority. A male is not a minority. Not now, not ever. No matter how much you repeat your lie.

Sex offenders can and do strike anywhere, and pretending they need to dress up first is an insult to victims. Any offender who wishes to access single-sex spaces will simply do it - and wearing a hi-vis, carrying a mop or pretending to be a trans man will be enough to stop him being challenged.

AGAIN, we don't give up our hands and let ALL males in. This is the third time I have addressed your 'they'd do it anyway so just let them in' 'argument'. And since you clearly did not see this image the previous two times:

“I'm sorry for your suffering, but you don't get to weaponise it.”

Isn’t that what you are doing on this thread though? How come you can do it but no one else can?

The man who raped me didn’t identify as trans.

but I don’t want any man in any women’s single sex spaces. Not just toilets. Not just changing rooms. Not just counselling.

I am entitled to single sex spaces. What is hard to understand about that? Why aren’t trans individuals going to obey the law?

Anti-trans hatred has killed a lot of young people, and those that survived have literal scars. Denying that is simply justification for hatred.

It’s not hatred to deny something that is completely untrue and a harmful lie.

Trans women are a minority, and one subjected to exactly the same misogyny and sexual violence as other women.

Well that's total nonsense for starters, where's you evidence?

Public spaces are not safe. At all. Sex offenders can and do strike anywhere, and pretending they need to dress up first is an insult to victims. Any offender who wishes to access single-sex spaces will simply do it - and wearing a hi-vis, carrying a mop or pretending to be a trans man will be enough to stop him being challenged.

We can and do take measures to safeguard women. But you want to dismantle those to give men access to things that don't belong to them. Why do you value women so little?

I think we need to confront the reality of cis male violence, not pretend they have a system.

Lets by all means confront the reality of MALE violence. What relevance is 'cis'? Let's not pretend we care about the safety of chickens while giving foxes full access to the coup.

No, I'm saying trans women are minority women.

And trans men are minority men.

Women are harassed and abused because violent men hate them. They're told they look too masculine or feminine, that they've too much or too little effort to look feminine - basically for any reason.

That happens to trans women too.

Depressingly, what unites all women isn't biology, fertility or experience. We're all too different to categorise. What we all have in common is being scared of violent cis men, being harassed and assaulted by them. Held up as not being as good as them.

All of us.

Trans women live with the same fear of being attacked for appearance as we do. They don't have male privilege.

I was raped in my own home but let’s not let that stand in the way of a good story.

So when women talk about their suffering it's 'weaponising'

But when men talk about theirs (and frankly, how does theirs compare to rape) our empathy needs to be so strong we dismantle women's rights to address it?

Jeez, but it's a man's, man's, man's, man's world, isn't it?

Trans women are not women.

You appear to be biologically illiterate. It's not a great starting point for rational discussion.

Excuse me? I'm.saying no survivor gets to speak over another, or use their trauma as a reason to attack a minority. Or another poster.

I am not doing that. It's kind of my point.

You’re ignoring my questions. I haven’t attacked anyone.

please can you answer my questions. Thank you.

Why don't you think women who were raped should have their legal rights to single sex spaces upheld?

The men who “identify as” women have zero to do with my life and I share nothing in common with them that I don’t share with all the other men.

You appear to be quite rude.

It's not fixing anything. Trans people will always exist, and denying that biological reality's pointless.

We have to live in the real world, not an imaginary one where shouting abuse makes a minority vanish.

Again. Transwomen are minority MALES. They are men. Not women. A male with a cock and ball sack is not a 'minority woman'.

There is no such thing as 'c1s' men. In reality. Just the male sex and the female sex. Males are males, even in a dress. And transwomen retain Male Privilege. Their Male Pattern Aggression when told no, their violent words and threats, and they fact they managed to re-order society and have women re-defined, and spaces and safeguards erased all in less than a generation, and still use their threats to enter our spaces is proof positive of their Male Privilege.

So to prevent male violence, women have to make all spaces mixed sex? How does this protect women? Are you saying these “ violent cis men” will stay out of women’s spaces if we let non cis men in? If they won’t stay out even if we let non cis men in, what benefit is there in letting men into female spaces?