Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025
Thread 59: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5459115-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-59 12 December 2025 to 17 December 2025

NHS Fife chief admits Sandie Peggie influenced retirement
https://archive.ph/UrGx7 I wonder whether Carol now regrets NHSF unconditional support of Dr Beth?

Also, wonder how the rest of them feel about it now. Must have been a gruelling year for them. Not much sympathy from me though, you reap what you sow

Scottish Information Commissioner launches intervention to improve NHS Fife’s FOI culture and practice

https://www.foi.scot/commissioner-launches-intervention-improve-nhs-fifes-foi-culture-and-practice

"the Commissioner has taken the unusual step of launching the intervention at Level 4 of his Intervention Procedures - the highest level currently available............Level 4 interventions are extremely rare, but the serious and systemic nature of the concerns that have come to light mean that this is the only route through which these issues can be appropriately addressed and resolved......... The new intervention is only the second intervention to have been undertaken by the Commissioner at Level 4"

I agree with the comments about procreation or not - Upton's marriage is private - but Upton explicitly said he wouldn't recognise a woman's right to say no to a male-bodied doctor treating her if he self-IDs into the female category, so where he works therefore is a matter of extreme importance for very many women in Scotland who cannot (for whatever reason, trauma, religion, other) cope with a male doctor.

If he doesn't want people discussing where he's practising medicine then he needs to recognise that other people - particularly his patients - are fully human too and their perceptions and feelings about their care matter as much as his (entirely fictional) belief he's a woman. It's a shame the regulator isn't enforcing informed consent, but given the very many horror stories about the NHS and the behaviour of senior managers in this and other cases it appears ideological authoritarianism is the main aim of the NHS these days, with patient care a very secondary concern.

IIRC there was something about a dementia patient being 'transphobic' because she only had the mental capacity to recognise reality and couldn't lie about it? In that context I think it's fair enough to want to know where he's working so he can be avoided.

I can't remember which post it was that said the Information Commissioner was deeply pissed off with Fife's arsing about even before the multiversion statement, but they weren't wrong.

I mean you would be wouldn't you! They've shown utter disrespect to the office.

I wasn’t trying to dox him since there cannot be a person in the UK that doesn’t know him or what he looks like. I wondered how his next hospital dealt with the changing room issue fur him.

Supporting men who want access to women-only spaces such as prisons, toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres and so on, is proving to be quite the career killer.

Most mistakes, even very large errors, at work will be forgiven. Providing you're genuinely sorry, explain honestly how it happened, do your best to help to fix it and can credibly pledge it will never happen again.

Dr Upton is now a very, very, high-risk hire. A prospective supervisor or HR hiring specialist will look at his application with horror.

Will he:

• gaslight patients who have asked to see a woman HCP for an intimate procedure?
• require his own expensive changing room and toilet facilities?
• go off sick with stress for long periods?
• fail to treat nurses, and his team of colleagues in general, with the required collegiate respect and trust?
• waste time taking copious notes to prepare for (largely imaginary) complaints against colleagues?
• generate so much additional work for his colleagues through selfish and disruptive behaviour that he becomes a large net financial loss to the hospital?
• result in damage to the professional reputation of the Hospital, and potentially to my own reputation too?

I expect Dr Upton will end up working for a medical centre specialising in transgender 'care'. There, his infamy will be an asset. Elsewhere I can't see him even getting through the sift prior to interviews.

So much hard work was required to get him to this position in his medical career. Yes, he has a very privileged background, but a medical degree (4-6 years) and the 2 years of foundation training are tough for anyone.

It's such a shocking self-inflicted waste of everyone's time, effort and money.

A psychologist recently told me that older transgender people often revert to their bio sex after developing dementia

Out of interest, I searched Google for dementia / transgender / revert

AI gave me this "Yes, transgender individuals with dementia may experience "reversion," where memory loss causes them to forget their transition and identify with their birth gender, leading to confusion, distress, and potentially needing care aligned with their assigned sex at birth, highlighting the need for trans-affirmative dementia care that respects their identity, uses correct pronouns, and considers their past experiences and wishes. This regression is a known, albeit complex, part of how dementia affects gender identity, sometimes causing confusion around pronouns, clothing, and toileting, and can be managed with person-centered planning, including legal documents"

So, if Bob wants to be Debbie, then as an older adult wishes to be Bob again, the TRA will insist on calling him Debbie against his wishes

Is that misgendering?

I think Dr Upton's career in regular medicine must be toast. But I've lost track, currently still at Victoria Hospital? If so, perhaps job is safe (no one would dare cross him) but must be frosty atmosphere in the hospital

Will he:

• require his own expensive changing room and toilet facilities?

I wouldn't have thought so.

Some of the NHS policies that we found for treating transgender patients included statements such as that. They included instructions to keep family away from the patient (if the family went along with the patient’s “delusion” that they had not transitioned) in favour of the patient’s “found” trans family who would remind the patient that they had transitioned.

This of course goes against every best practice for dementia patients.

Regarding Dr Upton's career, although he's got to be one of the most infamous medics not actually guilty of murder, i wouldn't be surprised if this has had very little affect on it. Possibly quite the opposite. We've seen from this tribunal, actually from several, how managers are gagging willing to beclown themselves on behalf of men the most marginalised and vulnerable™️. Other staff, patients, themselves simply don't matter as much.

Tbh, I think the amount of time he must have taken off sick might be a bigger black mark.

Wow, that's shocking

And ironic -

(1) calling Bob (TW) a man when he's a bio male is considered unacceptable
(2) when Bob reverts to believing himself to be male after developing dementia, then staff should insist on calling him Debbie against his express wishes

Upton said he’d treat a woman who requested female care because he is female. If she complained he’d get a colleague. So a woman who’s unconscious, confused, high or non verbal would get care from a man, which is assault.

judge kemp thought that was ok. I don’t.

It is grim. And it seems to be based on the most flawed and flimsy (single, tiny) piece of “research” I have ever come across.

Also, as an aside, there have been no known cases of dementia-induced heterosexuality - that is, gays and lesbians don’t suddenly forget that they were gay or lesbian if they get dementia.

I’m sure that says nothing whatsoever about the difference between sexuality and gender identity.

Nothing at all.

Also, as an aside, there have been no known cases of dementia-induced heterosexuality - that is, gays and lesbians don’t suddenly forget that they were gay or lesbian if they get dementia

Yes that's another point the psychologist was making in our discussion

I'm sure I remember reading of cases with dementia patients who were 'reverting' to their birth sex but, as the staff in the care homes had committed to treating them as the transitioned sex, they had almighty great fights over getting dressed etc. The carer would be contractually obliged (possibly in the US?) to dress them in the opposite sex clothing, which the patients would vigorously resist. I can't imagine that did anybody any good, especially not the dementia patient.

This is absolutely horrific. I didn't think I could be shocked by this gender ideology any more than I already was, but apparently I can!

It's another example of how chillingly cruel the whole thing is, even to those who bought into it willingly and wholeheartedly.

I agree with PP, I didn't think I could be shocked anymore, but I was wrong. This is abusive and completely unacceptable. I knew about trans dementia patients reverting and gay patients not reverting (absolutely confirms it's a mental delusion and not and inherent quality someone is born with), but I had no idea that staff were required to force them to continue with their transition against their will! That is torture and should be illegal.

It's not just clothing and names though. Those poor people who forget they've had surgery.

I also know of one such case in a care home.

The patient is a TIM with dementia who has forgotten about his transition. So some times goes around bare chested exposing his surgically implanted breasts (alarming the other residents).

His adult children requested that he be treated as male again, the care home told them no-can-do. Last I heard, the children were not happy at all and were considering escalating. I don't know how the whole sorry affair ended.

But yes, absolutely deranged behaviour from organisations.

Stuff of nightmares - Welcome to Dementia Dystopia.

His adult children requested that he be treated as male again, the care home told them no-can-do. Last I heard, the children were not happy at all and were considering escalating.

Who makes these rules up?

Dementia is difficult enough to deal with when the patient forgets who the family members are or gets violent but then to impose what seems like arbitrary rules .. I haven't got the words.

So if a TiM who has forgotten that he was a TiM still needs male treatment say prostate troubles (and I believe that even with surgery they keep their prostate) how do they deal with this?

Same here.

"Keys up" is a safeguard against anything negative. So you couldn't be passed "the bugs" in a game of "Pass the Bugs" (a very un-PC version of Tig/Tag, best not elaborated on).

We also used to put our "keys up" to ward off bad luck when walking under anything that crosses overhead, like a road sign with 2 poles, or a gateway that has a lintel. I still sometimes find myself doing that reflexively, decades later.

Anyway, as you were.

For those of an academic/research-y mind, and who are interested, this appears to be the “research” upon which these dementia in trans patients policies are based:

Please, for example, note the number of participants.

(link takes you to archives of papers from the University of Worcester, for those who don’t like clicking on random links)

https://eprints.worc.ac.uk/3745