Page 21 | Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

Original poster

nauticant · 26/12/2025 22:07

I think the, at best, carelessness and dismissiveness means that nothing in the judgment can be relied upon and unless it can be put in the bin, there's so much stuff that's plain wrong but unchallengeable via appeal, that a successful appeal would not lead to a positive outcome.

A full rehearing could be argued for and its granting could destroy Kemp's reputation so thoroughly that a replacement judge would be far more highly motivated to work in compliance with the law.

But I wonder if there's another solution. Win the argument that there has to be a rehearing and, with the previous NHS Fife CEO having left discredited, work hard for a settlement where NHS Fife can finally see that admitting they were wrong to do Upton's bidding and to seek to destroy Sandie Peggie would be better in every conceivable way than spending another year on the rehearing, wreck another CEO's career, and to piss another £1M up the wall to cause even worse damage to the Trust. I honestly think that a replacement CEO, if not captured, could be persuaded to think "hang on a minute, why must I wreck my career and cause massive additional damage to the Trust, just so this Upton bloke and his utterly unhinged supporters aren't upset?"

OP posts:

plantcomplex · 26/12/2025 22:24

A settlement cannot create case law though. That's a more important goal than just an isolated resolution with a single trust. Especially now it's clear how determined our institutions are to continue breaching the law despite the SC judgment.

I don't think Fife would be capable of resolving this properly without being forced to legally anyway. They don't believe that they've done anything wrong, so they would just issue an empty apology and carry on harming women.

ProtectedlyInsufferable · 26/12/2025 22:27

nauticant · 26/12/2025 22:07

I think the, at best, carelessness and dismissiveness means that nothing in the judgment can be relied upon and unless it can be put in the bin, there's so much stuff that's plain wrong but unchallengeable via appeal, that a successful appeal would not lead to a positive outcome.

A full rehearing could be argued for and its granting could destroy Kemp's reputation so thoroughly that a replacement judge would be far more highly motivated to work in compliance with the law.

But I wonder if there's another solution. Win the argument that there has to be a rehearing and, with the previous NHS Fife CEO having left discredited, work hard for a settlement where NHS Fife can finally see that admitting they were wrong to do Upton's bidding and to seek to destroy Sandie Peggie would be better in every conceivable way than spending another year on the rehearing, wreck another CEO's career, and to piss another £1M up the wall to cause even worse damage to the Trust. I honestly think that a replacement CEO, if not captured, could be persuaded to think "hang on a minute, why must I wreck my career and cause massive additional damage to the Trust, just so this Upton bloke and his utterly unhinged supporters aren't upset?"

That would happen only if the dreaded mind virus Sanity infected all relevant parties. It is possible that the Trust has had enough, but it probably depends very much on what the EAT does. I think only unequivocal application of FWS in the EAT would induce a settlement acceptable to both parties. If they do no more than throw the judgment out, NC will still be looking for a definitive outcome Fife are unlikely to give her.

KnottyAuty · 26/12/2025 22:55

Easytoconfuse · 26/12/2025 12:22

I think it's worse than intent. It's carelessness and dismissiveness. What 'Not All Gays' they said didn't matter enough to get their name right. To me that's worse than deadnaming and we all know how terrible that is, don't we?

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Excellent point about the misnaming!

ILoveLaLaLand · 26/12/2025 23:01

nauticant · 26/12/2025 22:07

I think the, at best, carelessness and dismissiveness means that nothing in the judgment can be relied upon and unless it can be put in the bin, there's so much stuff that's plain wrong but unchallengeable via appeal, that a successful appeal would not lead to a positive outcome.

A full rehearing could be argued for and its granting could destroy Kemp's reputation so thoroughly that a replacement judge would be far more highly motivated to work in compliance with the law.

But I wonder if there's another solution. Win the argument that there has to be a rehearing and, with the previous NHS Fife CEO having left discredited, work hard for a settlement where NHS Fife can finally see that admitting they were wrong to do Upton's bidding and to seek to destroy Sandie Peggie would be better in every conceivable way than spending another year on the rehearing, wreck another CEO's career, and to piss another £1M up the wall to cause even worse damage to the Trust. I honestly think that a replacement CEO, if not captured, could be persuaded to think "hang on a minute, why must I wreck my career and cause massive additional damage to the Trust, just so this Upton bloke and his utterly unhinged supporters aren't upset?"

Everyone at NHS Fife and Judge Sandy Kemp have bent over backwards to let a predatory man off the hook.
This is totally unacceptable.
Upton was in the wrong from the moment he set foot in the female changing room according to the law of the land and to anyone with a functioning brain.

There is no acceptable reason for him to have used the female changing room.
He could have used a single cubicle which was available if he really felt that he could not possibly change in the male changing room (which I personally do not believe, not even for a nano-second).

SwirlyGates · 26/12/2025 23:09

Upton was in the wrong from the moment he set foot in the female changing room according to the law of the land and to anyone with a functioning brain.

If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue. What real woman has ever said to her boss, "By the way, I'll be using the women's changing room, I hope that's OK." They'd think you were a nutjob and would probably wonder why such a nutjob had been hired.

BrokenSunflowers · 27/12/2025 02:01

NHS Fife couldn’t negotiate such a settlement because their barrister allowed a conflict of interest that tied them to Dr Upton. Their barrister is also a TRA and I think her professionalism would be stretched to breaking point to agree to a settlement where NHS Fife admitted they were in the wrong about Dr Upton’s behaviour.

MyAmpleSheep · 27/12/2025 02:15

BrokenSunflowers · 27/12/2025 02:01

NHS Fife couldn’t negotiate such a settlement because their barrister allowed a conflict of interest that tied them to Dr Upton. Their barrister is also a TRA and I think her professionalism would be stretched to breaking point to agree to a settlement where NHS Fife admitted they were in the wrong about Dr Upton’s behaviour.

A change of counsel for an appeal is only a mouse-click away and would be a commonplace occurrence in the event of a change of legal approach.

KnottyAuty · 27/12/2025 09:33

MyAmpleSheep · 27/12/2025 02:15

A change of counsel for an appeal is only a mouse-click away and would be a commonplace occurrence in the event of a change of legal approach.

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Of course this would require a degree of common sense that has so far been entirely lacking?!

MyAmpleSheep · 27/12/2025 09:45

KnottyAuty · 27/12/2025 09:33

Of course this would require a degree of common sense that has so far been entirely lacking?!

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Agreed!

Stepping back a bit, we have a high stakes strategy where a win on points of law in a higher court, even where the first tribunal found mediocre facts, might be the best possible outcome in the long run.

A wide victory in a court of first instance would be great for SP but not that much help for anyone else.

So depending on how things turn out we may come to reinterpret this dog’s breakfast of a judgment as a helpful step along the way way towards where we want to be. Judge Kemp may turn out to be an unlikely GC hero in the end.

KnottyAuty · 27/12/2025 10:30

MyAmpleSheep · 27/12/2025 09:45

Agreed!

Stepping back a bit, we have a high stakes strategy where a win on points of law in a higher court, even where the first tribunal found mediocre facts, might be the best possible outcome in the long run.

A wide victory in a court of first instance would be great for SP but not that much help for anyone else.

So depending on how things turn out we may come to reinterpret this dog’s breakfast of a judgment as a helpful step along the way way towards where we want to be. Judge Kemp may turn out to be an unlikely GC hero in the end.

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Im hanging my hopes on that 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

ILoveLaLaLand · 27/12/2025 10:37

MyAmpleSheep · 27/12/2025 09:45

Agreed!

Stepping back a bit, we have a high stakes strategy where a win on points of law in a higher court, even where the first tribunal found mediocre facts, might be the best possible outcome in the long run.

A wide victory in a court of first instance would be great for SP but not that much help for anyone else.

So depending on how things turn out we may come to reinterpret this dog’s breakfast of a judgment as a helpful step along the way way towards where we want to be. Judge Kemp may turn out to be an unlikely GC hero in the end.

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No.
He let a predatory man get away without any consequences for his actions.

Kemp is no hero.
He sacrificed a woman's right to dignity, privacy and safety for his career.
I dearly hope he has to resign in due course.

BrokenSunflowers · 27/12/2025 10:58

ILoveLaLaLand · 27/12/2025 10:37

No.
He let a predatory man get away without any consequences for his actions.

Kemp is no hero.
He sacrificed a woman's right to dignity, privacy and safety for his career.
I dearly hope he has to resign in due course.

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Ironically, Kemp has sacrificed his dignity and integrity, and possibly his carer, for the same predatory man.

ArabellaSaurus · 27/12/2025 11:19

BrokenSunflowers · 27/12/2025 10:58

Ironically, Kemp has sacrificed his dignity and integrity, and possibly his carer, for the same predatory man.

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That is the most generous interpretation.

The other possibility is that he was leant on from on high.

This wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. A corrupt government uses the judiciary to prop itself up.

lcakethereforeIam · 27/12/2025 11:20

Kemp sacrificed his carer!?😊 That probably explains his lack of judgement.

WearyAuldWumman · 27/12/2025 11:23

I think he's about the same age as I am - he qualified in '83. He must be about ready to retire, surely?

BrokenSunflowers · 27/12/2025 11:36

lcakethereforeIam · 27/12/2025 11:20

Kemp sacrificed his carer!?😊 That probably explains his lack of judgement.

😂

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 27/12/2025 11:36

lcakethereforeIam · 27/12/2025 11:20

Kemp sacrificed his carer!?😊 That probably explains his lack of judgement.

Good grief, poor woman.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 27/12/2025 13:21

"If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue."

@SwirlyGates , couldn't agree more. I've saud the same thing on a few threads. He KNOWS he's a man, he KNOWS he shouldn't have been there. How the numpty Kemp didn't pick up on that I'll never know. Dr U is condemned by his own words.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 27/12/2025 13:27

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 27/12/2025 13:21

"If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue."

@SwirlyGates , couldn't agree more. I've saud the same thing on a few threads. He KNOWS he's a man, he KNOWS he shouldn't have been there. How the numpty Kemp didn't pick up on that I'll never know. Dr U is condemned by his own words.

"If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue."

As I recall Upton didn't ask for permission & just said "I'll be using the women's facilities."

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 27/12/2025 13:42

PrettyDamnCosmic · 27/12/2025 13:27

"If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue."

As I recall Upton didn't ask for permission & just said "I'll be using the women's facilities."

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You may be right. Either way, the point is, no actual woman would ever say anything like this, as @SwirlyGates explained. So he outed himself unwittingly.

Boiledbeetle · 27/12/2025 14:17

Changing room issue from JR qs and NC qs:

Thursday 6th February morning session part 2
...
DU: Told where things are, staffroom, CRs, where we can get scrubs. Induction also included online learning and how the dept manages certain emergencies. Different availability of specialties to other places
JR: Who is your supervisor
DU: Supervisor is Dr Kate Searle, consultant in emergency medicine
JR: What did you discuss with her
DU: Aug 2023, discussed many things. My goals for the year, junior handbook- expectations, general chat about my previous experience of AE work
DU: Discussed trans identity and discussed CRs. Previously used women's with no issues. Aware people do have issues with trans people. KS said unaware of any policies for trans staff. As she understood DU should use women's as identifies as a woman
JR: When did you use women's
DU: From Aug 2nd, when I started working at Fife, in line with previous jobs and rights of trans people
JR: Describe general experience of trans women at Fife
DU: Generally wonderful
DU: Apart from SP have felt respected as a TW
JR: incident on August ?? Who was there first
DU: Me, was getting changed for a day shift
JR: Anyone else there...

Monday 10th February morning session part 1

NC Good am DU. I'm going to ask about permission to use CR. U first met w KS and u mention this in yr 1st interview w AG on p443. It was put to the C by JR that u had permission to use the CR. Can u reread yr responses. Do u agree [reads from statement re intending to use CR]
NC [my understanding wld be to contine using F CR] Isn't it true to say that y'd be doing this?
DU No, said was my experience. She agreed was the best way to proceed and wldnt say she acquiesced.
NC U were aware some colleagues may not be happy
DU disagree. Some ppl unhappy w
T ppl but [missed re GI]
NC Wasnt asking u about balance of interests. Asking u re the legal position & yr colleagues likely to be unhappy
DU I'd say they could be unhappy
NC Looking at formal complaint, you note [reads re using facilities aligning w my GI]
DU Is there a Q? ...

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005

Peggie vs Fife Health Board and Dr. B Upton

Changing rooms at centre of workplace discord

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005

NebulousSupportPostcard · 27/12/2025 15:54

SwirlyGates · 26/12/2025 23:09

Upton was in the wrong from the moment he set foot in the female changing room according to the law of the land and to anyone with a functioning brain.

If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue. What real woman has ever said to her boss, "By the way, I'll be using the women's changing room, I hope that's OK." They'd think you were a nutjob and would probably wonder why such a nutjob had been hired.

He said 'in line with previous jobs'. But he had only had one previous post while identifying publicly as a transwoman, and it was as a psychiatry doctor. And psychiatrists don't usually wear scrubs. And psychiatry doctors on call to A&E, assessing patients in a quiet interview room off reception, probably wouldn't have much need to use changing rooms. His supervisors should have known that.

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/12/2025 16:56

PrettyDamnCosmic · 27/12/2025 13:27

"If I remember rightly, he said to his new bosses something like, "I'll be using the women's facilities, is that OK?" rather than the bosses telling him which he should use. The fact that he mentioned it at all shows he knew it was potentially an issue."

As I recall Upton didn't ask for permission & just said "I'll be using the women's facilities."

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And then in court said that KS had "instructed" him to use female facilities, IIRC.

Alpacajigsaw · 27/12/2025 17:07

plus even if NHS Fife had told him he could use the female facilities he knows he’s male and shouldn’t have been. To paraphrase my old mum, if NHS Fife had told him to jump in the Clyde, would he have done that as well?