Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025
Thread 59: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5459115-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-59 12 December 2025 to 17 December 2025

I still can’t get over the fact that the tribunal judge basically said that NHS Fife should have removed Dr Upton from the female changing rooms but that Sandie didn’t ask in the right way. 🙈

That cannot be how single sex spaces are supposed to operate. That women have to pluck up the courage to complain.

So, a decade ago, if a man was found in women's sex based spaces, he'd have rightly been seen guilty of voyeurism (I mean, he's not going to be looking 180° the other way all the time), and he'd have been guilty of flashing (undressing is not screened off, that's a man unclothing in front of woman).
Evolution has given women an absolute sixth sense on sex characteristic recognition and a socially honed internal fire alarm for being in sexually risky situations.
Yet, in less than a decade, women are expected to stow their feelings, awareness, anxieties...because society tells them in less than 5 minutes that of all the characteristics that are out there (disability, race, ethnicity, age etc) that can't be chosen or transferred between, sex is going to be malleable etc?
Sandie Peggie was just one of the very few women who decided she couldn't stay silent.
Hundreds and thousands of others felt they had to, and went home from work, or from a venue, violated yet unable to even register their deep unease.

Exactly. And that's what is wilfully ignored by all the whingers who claim that banning transwomen from the women's won't stop predatory men from coming in. It will certainly deter many of them, and we know that those men who are undeterred would be the ones under arrest, not us for being bigoted transphobes.

Interesting short piece ref workplace regs. Hope we start to hear more from the HSE and health and safety professionals generally. Apologies if already shared, hard to keep up!
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sandie-peggie-ruling-100-wrong-36424159?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

That wasn't my experience, although it was a unisex changing room. I reported him to the management of the establishment and the police but nothing was done, despite the fact he was running around naked as I was told by another man who witnessed it. This was over 25 years ago.

That's progress - and long overdue for the H & S Executive to speak out. Women have had men foisted on them as they undress / use the toilet for years now and they've been completely silent.
Yet another example of how transactivism undermines the rule of the law, the social contract and the rights of women and girls to be safeguarded.
Now time for the police to reassure women that they'll tackle claims of voyeurism & indecent exposure when men are found in legal single sex spaces for women.

I agree. Also might help those HS departments who have perhaps also been shut up and overridden by DEI will feel able to stand up, but they need to be supported by HSE direction.

It's a good - and encouraging- article, but it's not the HSE speaking up. He's a retired employee and not speaking on the Executive's behalf.

I realise that. But presumably he's correct? In which case it''s unforgivable that the HSE has quivered in the face of the trans bullies and refused to speak out and pint out the law to all the politicians, lawyers and others breaking the law.

You'd hope he's right, but current employees may have been trained otherwise.

Excellent from Kevin McKenna

archive.is/2025.12.21-132027/www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/25711402.scotlands-useless-politicians-drag-nation-ethical-abyss/

It struck me too that he is retired. Wonder if he’s hoping current HSE leaders will pick up on. I also wonder how it’s been possible for the HSE to have been so quiet (unless I’ve missed it).

Holy fuck.

https://www.foi.scot/commissioner-launches-intervention-improve-nhs-fifes-foi-culture-and-practice

'Scottish Information Commissioner David Hamilton has today 17 December 2025 launched an intervention to support improvements in the culture and practice towards freedom of information (FOI) in NHS Fife. The intervention aims to address a number of significant issues which have come to light during the Commissioner’s investigation of the FOI appeals made to his office concerning the health board.
Given the nature of concerns identified, the Commissioner has taken the unusual step of launching the intervention at Level 4 of his Intervention Procedures - the highest level currently available. Level 4 interventions are generally undertaken to address serious, significant, and persistent concerns about a public authority’s FOI practice.'

I've only just seen this, sorry if it's already been gone through!

Just noticed this in the Telegraph

https://archive.ph/guAkO

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/21/nurses-risk-punishment-for-misgendering-trans-colleagues/

This quote from the NMC at the end of the article

we can clarify that our guidance does not assume that any instance in which a registrant does not use a patient’s preferred pronouns is misconduct, or requires regulatory action – concerns raised with us are considered on their individual facts and context.

reminds me of the vague conditions Kemp put on the use of correct sex pronouns. Kemp, from his judgement, seemed to have decided Peggie's side had crossed whatever his arbitrary line was. This is more of the same. It provides no clarity.

That is pure humbug from the NMC.

The quote below is (obviously ) a reference to the Jennifer Melly case:

“When challenged about her behaviour, the nurse says that she was acting in accordance with her belief that human beings cannot change their sex or gender. We are likely to take action against this nurse."

Since the TiM in question had a problem with his urinary tract, it's a pity the hospital didn't treat him as a woman, and say, "there, there, dear, all your imagination, go away." i.e. patronise him as so often women are patronised.

Considering the trans prisoner, if the doctor had said to the nurse "please fetch the male catheter pack" would that have been misgendering?

I've always thought the best defence against "misgendering" is to say you are correctly sexing. In the above example that would be the most effective.

Even in schools I think it's important to correctly sex teachers as a safeguarding practice.

Voyeurism is still recognised as a serious crime in the UK -

"Voyeurism is when someone gets sexual pleasure from watching, photographing or recording others doing something that's usually private, for example when they're naked or having sex."

https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/voyeurism-upskirting/

"Voyeurism is defined as the act of gaining sexual gratification from watching or recording someone engaging in private activities without their consent. This includes people undressing, bathing, and engaging in sexual activities, but can also include observing people fully clothed."

https://mcarthursolicitors.co.uk/areas-practice/sexual-offences/voyeurism-and-upskirting-offences/

Yes. You need to communicate your wishes through the medium of respectful mime. And then log a complaint with catheter pack supplier, which ends with the words "Do Better".

Yes. And that is what happens when men are allowed into spaces where girls / women undress.
The fact that the NHS, the police, even schools minimise these sex crimes tells us something about the predilictions of certain people at the very top of these institutions. And says something about the climate of fear that's created by them and others which renders responsible adults feel unable to call out sex crimes.

It's very stark when you realise precisely what they're advocating.

It would be interesting to know if any equipment companies have been targeted with 'requests' to pander.

This is interesting given the discussions about how difficult it is to challenge the behaviour of judges - no matter how awful their conduct is. The Times are reporting that 3 separate women have complained about the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office ‘unlawfully’ and ‘unreasonably’ failing to address their complaints about ET judge Philip Lancaster

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/law/article/complaint-alleged-bullying-judge-8dhn0j5s9

Archive link: https://archive.ph/9aTWp

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/equality-and-diversity-guidance/lgbtplus-equality-in-medicine/policy-position-on-the-rights-of-transgender-and-non-binary-people-in-healthcare-settings

It gets worse. The BMA are contradicting the Supreme Court as well. They are backing trans woman doctors being allowed to use female changing rooms and for trans gender woman patients being allowed in women’s wards.
When is it going to end?

The BMA is a trade union and infected with the same genderwoo as much of the rest of the trade union movement is.

Myrtle I was thinking that today.

We should all run around wailing and crying when someone is mis-sexed. It will have grave consequences in real life if we mis-sex someone. It’s so important to correct sex and mis gender, than correct gender and mis-sex. As above if someone is accused of rape then mis-sexing them means the offence couldn’t have been committed so it’s a pure nonsense. Mis-gendering might lead to hurty feelings but won’t have practical consequences.