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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex Matters - Hampstead Heath Ponds -

720 replies

SexRealismBeliefs · 15/12/2025 18:42

Sex Matters, a charity that campaigns for single-sex rights, will argue that the City of London Corporation is breaching equality law by allowing trans women to use Kenwood Ladies’ Pond on Hampstead Heath.

Hearing this Wednesday.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

Hampstead women’s pond sued over transgender access

Sex Matters claims that the City of London Corporation is defending a policy that defies the Supreme Court ruling on single-sex services

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

OP posts:
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28
FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 11:41

Melarus · 31/01/2026 11:18

Why do you keep insisting it's about the men?

If the Ladies' pond is strictly single-sex and a male tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are 100% for the female gate staff who have to tell him no.

If a trans man or androgynous, butch or non-binary woman tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are for her potentially having to undergo an intrusive and humiliating process of verifying her biological sex.

If the Ladies' pond is strictly single-sex and a male tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are 100% for the female gate staff who have to tell him no.

Because he is a threat, right?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 11:41

Melarus · 31/01/2026 11:18

Why do you keep insisting it's about the men?

If the Ladies' pond is strictly single-sex and a male tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are 100% for the female gate staff who have to tell him no.

If a trans man or androgynous, butch or non-binary woman tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are for her potentially having to undergo an intrusive and humiliating process of verifying her biological sex.

Again, do you think violent or aggressive men should just be waved on into the women’s pond?

Imdunfer · 31/01/2026 11:41

Melarus · 31/01/2026 11:18

Why do you keep insisting it's about the men?

If the Ladies' pond is strictly single-sex and a male tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are 100% for the female gate staff who have to tell him no.

If a trans man or androgynous, butch or non-binary woman tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are for her potentially having to undergo an intrusive and humiliating process of verifying her biological sex.

Do you realise that if that non confrontational approach is chosen, you have supported allowing men to bully women to get into a single sex space?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 11:41

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 11:41

If the Ladies' pond is strictly single-sex and a male tries to get in and is challenged, my worries are 100% for the female gate staff who have to tell him no.

Because he is a threat, right?

Thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 11:43

If the female gate staff are expected to deal with violent men I’d expect some support from the Kenwood Ponds Association or whatever they are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 11:50

What I’d like, Melarus, is for you to own what you want. You know “trans women” are men, and can foresee them being violent if thwarted, no? So you think other men will balance it out if it’s mixed sex?

DontStopMe · 31/01/2026 11:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 11:43

If the female gate staff are expected to deal with violent men I’d expect some support from the Kenwood Ponds Association or whatever they are.

They must already have ways of dealing with people who shouldn't be going in. What do they do if a bunch of drunk lads shows up and tries to get in?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 12:00

Good question. “But I’m a laydeeeee”. Is there something more threatening about “trans women” do you think, @Melarus?

Melarus · 31/01/2026 12:05

I'm going out now and don't have time to answer all these - you'll have to pile on me in my absence! I'll just say that yes, I do feel sorry for women who are unable to use the pond as it stands. But clearly the current arrangement is not working, and as a PP said, I'd rather they were just honest and upfront about the fact that the ponds are essentially all mixed sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 12:08

I’ve no intention to pile on, I just prefer that people are honest about what they think.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 12:17

I doubt that they will ever make all 3 ponds mixed sex. The numerous gay men who value the men's pond will never allow that.

MyAmpleSheep · 31/01/2026 12:19

Melarus · 31/01/2026 12:05

I'm going out now and don't have time to answer all these - you'll have to pile on me in my absence! I'll just say that yes, I do feel sorry for women who are unable to use the pond as it stands. But clearly the current arrangement is not working, and as a PP said, I'd rather they were just honest and upfront about the fact that the ponds are essentially all mixed sex.

And, we aren’t having a go at you… we love you and support you and wish you well. But we think your argument is weak and ill thought through.

If we point out the flaws in it, there’s a chance you might change your mind. Please don’t take it personally.

Datun · 31/01/2026 12:22

Melarus · 31/01/2026 12:05

I'm going out now and don't have time to answer all these - you'll have to pile on me in my absence! I'll just say that yes, I do feel sorry for women who are unable to use the pond as it stands. But clearly the current arrangement is not working, and as a PP said, I'd rather they were just honest and upfront about the fact that the ponds are essentially all mixed sex.

You're expecting honesty from people that you just decided would sell women down the river as soon as a man kicks off because he's denied entry to their pool.

What a shame you don't expect honesty from the trans identified men instead.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 12:23

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 12:17

I doubt that they will ever make all 3 ponds mixed sex. The numerous gay men who value the men's pond will never allow that.

What happened when ManFriday joined was instructive. Women who had just put a wig and a beard on and said that they were men were not allowed and ISTR the police were called. How is this different from men who identify as women using the women’s pool?

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 12:28

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/01/2026 12:23

What happened when ManFriday joined was instructive. Women who had just put a wig and a beard on and said that they were men were not allowed and ISTR the police were called. How is this different from men who identify as women using the women’s pool?

Quite. As ever, it shows that everyone knows exactly who are the men and who are the women.

I actually think that the quickest way for women to get their pond back would be to petition to make all the ponds mixed sex😘

Datun · 31/01/2026 12:29

They won't make the three ponds mixed sex. The men won't want it.

None of the men, including those who are in denial.

Datun · 31/01/2026 12:30

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 12:28

Quite. As ever, it shows that everyone knows exactly who are the men and who are the women.

I actually think that the quickest way for women to get their pond back would be to petition to make all the ponds mixed sex😘

😆 totally. Instant outrage

MarieDeGournay · 31/01/2026 12:34

Melarus · 31/01/2026 12:05

I'm going out now and don't have time to answer all these - you'll have to pile on me in my absence! I'll just say that yes, I do feel sorry for women who are unable to use the pond as it stands. But clearly the current arrangement is not working, and as a PP said, I'd rather they were just honest and upfront about the fact that the ponds are essentially all mixed sex.

Melarus, the term 'pile on' has negative connotations of people being offensive and bullying in their responses. On the whole, you haven't had offensive or nasty replies, have you? I think most of us have been polite and factual in our posts.
It's true that, as you foresaw, most posters here disagree with you, and have individually expressed that disagreement firmly, but I don't think 'a whole lot of people firmly disagreeing with me as I expected they would ' constitutes a pile on.Smile

FallenSloppyDead2 · 31/01/2026 12:54

Datun · 31/01/2026 12:29

They won't make the three ponds mixed sex. The men won't want it.

None of the men, including those who are in denial.

The focus group consultation found that Making the ponds mixed-sex spaces was the least preferred option.... Some also feared this option might be used as a compromise if the debate between single-sex and trans-inclusive became too polarised.

If the CLC cannot find a legal way of allowing the special men into the women's pond, they will revert to biological sex not mixed sex.

ElenOfTheWays · 31/01/2026 13:09

MyAmpleSheep · 31/01/2026 02:43

while still avoiding the rather horrific scenario of swimmers being asked to confirm their biological sex at the gate

why is it horrific to ask some to say what their biological sex is?

It's literal violence innit? 🙄

SinnerBoy · 31/01/2026 14:00

Melarus

So, you are proposing that the serial rapists, "Karen" White and "Isla" Bryson should be allowed to swan in to the womens' pond, then.

Shortshriftandlethal · 31/01/2026 14:02

Melarus · 30/01/2026 20:58

I'd be sad to lose the women-only aspect - I've enjoyed it in the past. But I recognise that the world has changed.

In what way would you say the world has changed?

I'd say that sex still exists. Humans still come in two sexes, male and female. Males still have a greater propensity to fetishes and paraphilias, including voyeurism and cross dressing; women are still vulnerable to male sexual propensities which can negatively impact upon their inclusion and enjoyment in public spaces.

All that has changed is that lots of people now seem to think female dignity, privacy and confort doesn't matter as much as permitting men access to their reserved and protected spaces if they demand it.

sashaymashay · 31/01/2026 14:05

whatwouldafeministdo · 31/01/2026 11:14

Having said the above, I'm all for corporations being honest and honestly labelling spaces. So if all the ponds are in fact mixed-sex they should be labelled as such. That way it won't just be the law-breaking men sharing spaces with women which will be safer than it being only the ones who don't give a fuck about the law or women's safety being there.

Edited to add: Obviously it would be better if women can have some basic rights and have access to statistically safer single-sex spaces (also allowing many religious women to access public life). However it's about time organisations like Morrisons are held liable for lying to the public and causing harm (Morrisons allowed the 6ft5 Dolatowski into their 'womens' toilets to attack a child, which she very well might not have used, or used with her Dad if it was accurately labelled 'mixed sex').

Edited

However it's about time organisations like Morrisons are held liable for lying to the public and causing harm (Morrisons allowed the 6ft5 Dolatowski into their 'womens' toilets to attack a child, which she very well might not have used, or used with her Dad if it was accurately labelled 'mixed sex').

This is so true.

Pretend places are single sex is more dangerous. Guards are down, expectations are skewed and safeguarding relaxed accordingly. Just label the three ponds mixed sex as they are.

Keeptoiletssafe · 31/01/2026 15:17

The only way to come to a consensus is to have a proper survey done with clearer language, explaining the 2 options available and who they will exclude. All groups concerned can check that they are happy with the wording. That will be the tricky part!

Both these options below, I think, comply with the law. The advantage of surveying it this way is you only have to tick a box. Perhaps people could come along to a polling station nearby to the ponds to give greater weight to locals.

Option 1. Keep the names and the ponds are for women only, then mixed and then men only, as the current names state. The facilities stay as they were intended to be years ago. Men (however they identify) aren’t allowed in the pond for women, women (however they identify) aren’t allowed in the pond for men. The survey should state that this option leads to the exclusion of people who want to go in the pond where it is expected that the majority of users are of the opposite sex for comfort.

Option 2. Rename the ponds. Provide a clear description of who is allowed in each pond in different languages so all visitors are aware of changes. All ponds are mixed sex. The renamed women’s pond is for women and men who would prefer to bathe with women. The mixed stays the same. The renamed men’s is for men and women who would prefer to bathe with men.
The survey should state that this option 2 leads to the exclusion of women with trauma of men, people of certain religious faiths, and people who only want to bathe with people of the same sex for comfort. With this option the facilities in 2 ponds may have to change to reflect that everything needs to conform to a mixed sex design (I do not know the current configuration so this is speculative). Mixed sex designs are never as good for health and safety as single sex designs. They are less safe for the medically vulnerable, women and children.

If it’s option 2 it will be interesting to see how it changes usage - will the sexes keep themselves largely separate once they have official permission to mix. Based on my toilet research, I would predict a few groups of young males will go into the renamed women’s, specifically targeting this pond to show off laddish behaviour and intimidate young women. There may be more lone males in the renamed women’s around the changing areas (depending on the current configuration) who now have ‘permission’ to be there. In contrast, I think the renamed men’s will stay mostly men, and the mixed stay mixed though less numbers as many of the unattached men will be in the women’s.

For comparison, in some uk secondary schools, I know children have been known to try and divide the mixed sex toilets up into male and female sides such is the natural distain for them when only presented with mixed sex toilets. With mixed sex toilets there are problems with hygiene and misuse so supervision needs to be increased for health and safety. Some girls avoid going to the mixed sex toilets (because of hygiene issues and misuse including voyeurism) and in a few cases miss school when there’s not the option to avoid needing the toilet. This last bit is a worldwide problem. In fact, many aid charities such as UNICEF and PLAN build separate female toilets as they find that’s the easiest and only way for girls to get an education.

Option 1 is the easiest and only way to include all women and girls getting access to the ponds - by one of the ponds being single sex.

If you state the 2 options clearly for people to vote on, people can choose which demographic(s) to exclude. In voting, you are voting for exclusion either way.

OhBuggerandArse · 31/01/2026 18:49

Your Option 2 is illegal and has no defensible basis in law - there is no legitimate process by which it is possible to 'choose' to evade the relevant provisions of the Equality Act.

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