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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
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Desdemonadryeyes · 12/12/2025 23:51

What part would the panel have played in the judgement?

nauticant · 12/12/2025 23:56

Noodledog · 12/12/2025 23:47

I'm just asking you this, as I know you are a lawyer- are lawyers generally concerned about how little oversight judges seem to be subject to? My personal opinion is that it is incredibly destructive to peoples faith in the legal system if judges can seem to be able to do what they want, without facing any sanctions.

It's only recently that people have started to have access to trials and tribunals like this, and it feels like the more we are aware of how the system works, the more faith in it crumbles away. This cannot be a good thing for society.

I think that what we've seen is the emergence of activist-judges. A scourge like activist-lawyers, activist-journalists, activist-broadcasters etc.

I'm sure there have always been activist-judges in one form or another, it's just in the gender area with social media exposure, their activities are much more apparent, but this just seems to embolden them, enough for them to seek to undermine a judgment of the Supreme Court. That to me is new.

OP posts:
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 12/12/2025 23:57

Sskka · 12/12/2025 23:46

I cannot believe this. I work in the law and we get horror stories and warnings every other week about how this might happen if you use AI – and if you do use AI, the onus is on you to check and double-check everything because it’s your head on the block if you don’t. It’s terrifying.

The idea that a judge might dive headfirst into the trap in a case which IS THE NUMBER ONE STORY IN THE BBC NEWS HEADLINES AND IS GOING TO BE SCRUTINISED FROM EVERY ANGLE IMAGINABLE … you wouldn’t think it could possibly happen.

It’s nuts isn’t it? I hope someone is keeping a list of all the people that have torched their careers and reputations trying to uphold this gender nonsense.

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 12/12/2025 23:58

Noodledog · 12/12/2025 23:47

I'm just asking you this, as I know you are a lawyer- are lawyers generally concerned about how little oversight judges seem to be subject to? My personal opinion is that it is incredibly destructive to peoples faith in the legal system if judges can seem to be able to do what they want, without facing any sanctions.

It's only recently that people have started to have access to trials and tribunals like this, and it feels like the more we are aware of how the system works, the more faith in it crumbles away. This cannot be a good thing for society.

There is a principle in British law which is put simply the separation of powers.

so parliament, legislature, and courts cannot interfere with each other.

it is a democratic concept.

In the uk we do not elect judges they are appointed, so hold beyond political influence.

It is imperfect but i prefer that model.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/12/2025 00:03

And of course if individual judge's competence could too easily be called into question then we would not really have an independent judiciary.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 00:03

Desdemonadryeyes · 12/12/2025 23:51

What part would the panel have played in the judgement?

That’s a really good question I’d like to be clear on too. I know they normally get together to discuss a month or so (or later) after the final submissions are made. Can anyone legal elaborate on the process?

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 13/12/2025 00:04

nauticant · 12/12/2025 22:42

I think Kemp's judgment should be set aside and everything starting ab initio. Whether that would be from the initial claims in document form held by Kemp on the first day of the hearing or the opportunity to submit brand new claims with new papers.

But I think that that's just impossible from a practical point of view. Which means the appeal process is going to be beyond nightmarish. SP's team will be effectively fighting phantoms present in Kemp's judgment. In a legal context it's far easier to argue against a sound opposing position than to argue against mad stuff. With mad stuff you have to expand your arguments massively to counter tangents going in all directions and also things going in all directions that aren't even tangential.

Exactly. It's kind of hard to explain succinctly why it doesn't make sense... because it really doesn't make sense.

As I think a pp said on the last thread, it's similar to those arguments that are not even wrong.

Not even wrong - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 00:06

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 12/12/2025 23:23

I don't know who puts them together and whether other people might have written bits up but the s spelling appears in other judgements of his

Individual writers are not always consistent in their spellings, and sometimes vary even in the same document. That said, variation is more common in multi-author works, which may of course be the case here. It's also more likely if a writer is cutting and pasting from other sources.

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:14

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 12/12/2025 23:58

There is a principle in British law which is put simply the separation of powers.

so parliament, legislature, and courts cannot interfere with each other.

it is a democratic concept.

In the uk we do not elect judges they are appointed, so hold beyond political influence.

It is imperfect but i prefer that model.

I'm not talking about political influence, I'm talking about basic professional standards. If a student used AI in an exam, or even just an essay, they would be sanctioned. I'm asking, are judges exempt from even this? If they are, if they are effectively held to no standards, how can anyone trust the legal system?

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 13/12/2025 00:18

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 00:06

Individual writers are not always consistent in their spellings, and sometimes vary even in the same document. That said, variation is more common in multi-author works, which may of course be the case here. It's also more likely if a writer is cutting and pasting from other sources.

I think it’s been pointed out on Twitter that he’s included -ize spelling in quotes where the source documents use -ise. Again proving he didn’t c&p directly from the sources.

if this was the only thing that was noticed it would be meh, but it adds to the pile of evidence that this is a poorly drafted judgement.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:26

Noodledog · 12/12/2025 23:47

I'm just asking you this, as I know you are a lawyer- are lawyers generally concerned about how little oversight judges seem to be subject to? My personal opinion is that it is incredibly destructive to peoples faith in the legal system if judges can seem to be able to do what they want, without facing any sanctions.

It's only recently that people have started to have access to trials and tribunals like this, and it feels like the more we are aware of how the system works, the more faith in it crumbles away. This cannot be a good thing for society.

I don't think I can speak for lawyers generally, but I'm happy to share my own thoughts and concerns, which I know are shared by at least some lawyers.

Personally, I am concerned that magistrates frequently convict people when the case is far from proven beyond reasonable doubt. Read the Secret Barrister's books for some horror stories.

I am concerned that the Court of Appeal still upholds convictions when it is clear that the accused is almost certainly innocent, because they appear to worry that overturning too may convictions will result in people losing faith in the justice system. It has improved, but it still isn't good enough. It shouldn't have needed an Act of Parliament to clear all the subpostmasters. The Court of Appeal should have done the job but, whilst they did clear some, they upheld every single conviction where the Post Office objected to it being overturned. That should not have happened.

I am concerned that the family courts sometimes make odd judgements that really don't stand up to scrutiny.

I am concerned every time I see an appeal where the first tier judge has come up with a decision that suggests they really don't understand the law they are supposed to be upholding.

I could go on.

There is some oversight of judges. The Judicial Conduct and Investigations Office (JCIO) issued 58 disciplinary sanctions in 2023-24 (the most recent year for which figures are available). I'm not sure whether that means they are catching most misconduct or just the tip of the iceberg.

Things have certainly changed in my lifetime. In criminal trials, for example, there was a time when some judges behaved as if they were an additional advocate for the prosecution. And the practice of the judge using the summing up to strongly guide the jury towards the verdict they wanted has stopped.

But it is still the case that sometimes people fail to get justice because the lower courts make a mess of the case and the litigant does not have enough money and/or determination to pursue an appeal. I would not expect a judge to face sanctions for simply getting it wrong unless they are making the same mistake repeatedly, but they certainly shouldn't be turning in judgements like this one, which is easily the worst I have ever seen.

However, to be balanced, most judgements I have seen are reasonable and the in the overwhelming majority I agree with the judgement. And judges are sometimes in an impossible position. They may, for example, be faced with two different accounts of a road traffic accident with no independent evidence to support either, but they still have to come up with a decision as to who was at fault.

So no, the system is not perfect and I suspect that oversight of judges is inadequate, but the system works well most of the time. However, we should always be looking for ways to improve. The fact that the JCIO is now able to deal with complaints about tribunal judges and non-legal members of tribunals is a step forward in my view - previously these complaints were dealt with by the senior leadership judge in each tribunal.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:27

Desdemonadryeyes · 12/12/2025 23:51

What part would the panel have played in the judgement?

Kemp and the other two members of the tribunal discussed the case and had to agree the verdict. According to the judgement, their decision was unanimous.

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 00:28

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 13/12/2025 00:18

I think it’s been pointed out on Twitter that he’s included -ize spelling in quotes where the source documents use -ise. Again proving he didn’t c&p directly from the sources.

if this was the only thing that was noticed it would be meh, but it adds to the pile of evidence that this is a poorly drafted judgement.

I was surprised that the Times quoted somebody saying the supposedly American spelling points to AI. That doesn't really hold up. But yes, certainly a dog's dinner of a judgement.

Could he have delegated to other members of the tribunal panel? Do we know if they are lawyers, or lay members as in the Morrison case?

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:29

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 12/12/2025 23:58

There is a principle in British law which is put simply the separation of powers.

so parliament, legislature, and courts cannot interfere with each other.

it is a democratic concept.

In the uk we do not elect judges they are appointed, so hold beyond political influence.

It is imperfect but i prefer that model.

Agree 100%.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:32

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:14

I'm not talking about political influence, I'm talking about basic professional standards. If a student used AI in an exam, or even just an essay, they would be sanctioned. I'm asking, are judges exempt from even this? If they are, if they are effectively held to no standards, how can anyone trust the legal system?

No, they are not exempt from this. If it is found that Kemp used AI to produce the judgement, he could well face sanctions from the JCIO. Or he may be quietly pushed out to pasture.

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:33

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:29

Agree 100%.

I suspect that people who ended up in prison in the post office scandal would be a bit more sceptical. But it's easy to accept that "unfortunately these things sometimes happen" if it's not us who are the victims.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:36

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:33

I suspect that people who ended up in prison in the post office scandal would be a bit more sceptical. But it's easy to accept that "unfortunately these things sometimes happen" if it's not us who are the victims.

I agree with that as well.

It is definitely the case that many judges aren't too good on technology, but it doesn't help that the law says they must accept computer evidence and assume the computers were working correctly. The subpostmasters were required to prove that the computer system wasn't working, rather than Post Office being required to prove that it was. That was an impossible burden for them. Parliament should never have put it there, but the government seems reluctant to change this so it could happen again.

Many judges and lawyers aren't too good with statistics either, but that's another story.

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:36

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:32

No, they are not exempt from this. If it is found that Kemp used AI to produce the judgement, he could well face sanctions from the JCIO. Or he may be quietly pushed out to pasture.

But I think that's the problem. He shouldn't be able to be "quietly pushed out to pasture", he should be held accountable for his actions. Because- if he has done what he seems to have done- then, frankly, it's more serious than your average criminal in court. He's a judge- given the power he has, he should be held to the very highest standards.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 00:03

That’s a really good question I’d like to be clear on too. I know they normally get together to discuss a month or so (or later) after the final submissions are made. Can anyone legal elaborate on the process?

The process is that they discuss the case and agree the outcome, preferably unanimously but a majority will do. One of the lay members will have employer/HR experience, the other will have employee/union experience, so they bring those perspectives to the discussion. The judge is the only qualified lawyer on the panel, so they guide the others as to the law. We can therefore assume that the mess this panel made of the law was entirely down to Kemp, although it is quite possible the other panel members wanted the law to be as described in the judgement.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:47

Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:36

But I think that's the problem. He shouldn't be able to be "quietly pushed out to pasture", he should be held accountable for his actions. Because- if he has done what he seems to have done- then, frankly, it's more serious than your average criminal in court. He's a judge- given the power he has, he should be held to the very highest standards.

The only sanctions the JCIO can issue are formal advice, a formal warning, a reprimand or removal from office. Of course, in really serious cases a judge can be prosecuted for misconduct in public office, but I'm not sure when that last happened.

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 00:48

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:41

The process is that they discuss the case and agree the outcome, preferably unanimously but a majority will do. One of the lay members will have employer/HR experience, the other will have employee/union experience, so they bring those perspectives to the discussion. The judge is the only qualified lawyer on the panel, so they guide the others as to the law. We can therefore assume that the mess this panel made of the law was entirely down to Kemp, although it is quite possible the other panel members wanted the law to be as described in the judgement.

To what extent do the other tribunal members contribute to the writing of the judgement? Is it typically a joint effort, with the judge having the responsibility to ensure it meets certain legal standards? Or is the responsibility for writing entirely down to the judge?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 13/12/2025 00:49

This extract from the Scotland Employment Tribunal National User Group Meeting of October 2024 seems relevant to these discussions.

If, as proposed here, the presidents of the ET are indeed moving towards limiting public accessibility by removing ET decisions from Google indexing, then it seems likely that in future it would be much harder for members of the public to compare any given ET Judge's decisions over time, in order to interrogate potential instances of judicial misconduct that may seem to have arisen.

https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-tribunal/employment-tribunal-scotland/employment-tribunal-user-group-minutes-for-scotland/

" ET Register

The Lord Chancellor maintains a register containing a copy of all judgments
and written reasons issued by an Employment Tribunal. There are exceptions for some types of decision.

The obligation on the Lord Chancellor is simply to maintain a register, not
necessarily online, and although it is implicit in the requirement to maintain
the register that it should be open to the public, this obligation does not
require the register to be indexed by Google or capable of data harvesting by
machine learning tools. Both of these aspects of the online register have
caused increasing concern over the last few years.

For the last couple of years, Judge Walker, and Judge Barry Clarke,
President of Employment Tribunals (England and Wales) have been
involved in discussions with officials about the future of the ET register. One
possibility is to move the register to The National Archives, where it can
remain accessible under the Find Case Law (FCL) banner.

Unlike the existing online archive, the FCL service is not indexed by Google,
and it is subject to more stringent conditions around data harvesting.
Separate licensing arrangements allow the full archive to be analysed by
academics and researchers, so some data harvesting would be permitted
subject to appropriate constraints.
A smaller subset of judgments – the more interesting and important – are
published, and thereby more readily available to the wider public.

This is what the presidents would like to achieve for ET, but no final
decisions have been made yet and would be subject to the national archivebeing able to accommodate the judgments. Judge Walker will keep users
updated if there are any proposed changes."

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Noodledog · 13/12/2025 00:52

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 00:47

The only sanctions the JCIO can issue are formal advice, a formal warning, a reprimand or removal from office. Of course, in really serious cases a judge can be prosecuted for misconduct in public office, but I'm not sure when that last happened.

Then unfortunately, trust in the legal system will just continue to decrease. I am honestly concerned about the effect this will have on society- if the judges can't be trusted, no-one can. And then where do we go?

Anyway, on that very depressing thought, I'm going to bed.

ProfessorBinturong · 13/12/2025 01:24

It gets more depressing.

Sorry, can't remember who posted this article earlier, but for those who missed it it points out an unbelievable flaw in holding employment tribunal judges to account.

Not all ETs have audio recording or stenographers. For those that don't, the judge's notes are the only official record - and the judge can refuse to hand them over to an investigation.

davidhencke.com/2025/09/15/the-black-hole-of-accountability-employment-judges-block-evidence-in-their-own-misconduct-cases/

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