Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
62
Noodledog · 12/12/2025 23:05

Alpacajigsaw · 12/12/2025 22:11

I had a quick look and reading between the lines I suspect the claimant may have been a bit batshit. Being binned off by her TU rep and “unable to obtain legal advice” being clues there

I just want to add, and I don't want to derail any further, having read that preliminary report, that there is nothing to suggest that the claimant was "a bit batshit". Rather that she came up against a wall of men denying what had happened to her, and was denied the support to fight that.

MyrtleLion · 12/12/2025 23:07

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 12/12/2025 23:03

@MyrtleLion my favourite comment is:
Hey! I hear you’re trying to write a judgment. Would you like help with that? [With a picture of Clippy]

Me too!

I particularly liked the reference to a cake recipe and then someone quoted the actual cake recipe from the judgment! As if the judge would make up random sections 🤣 🤔🤷🏼‍♀️

CohensDiamondTeeth · 12/12/2025 23:08

NotanotherWeek · 12/12/2025 22:32

I don’t see how another judge could deal with it without seeing all the witnesses give evidence and forming their own view of credibility. It would be entirely wrong to save Kemp’s evaluation of witness reliability and bin the rest of his judgment for being the product of opiate-induced mania, or whatever it is. However the most sensible option, proceeding to appeal at a properly objective EAT, may be too much to wish for. Unlike HildegardP I’m not convinced that I haven’t entered an alternative dimension, I have never encountered such widespread and complete lunacy as has engulfed most of the world in the last few years, and I remember The Twist.

"I don’t see how another judge could deal with it without seeing all the witnesses give evidence and forming their own view of credibility."

Yes that is a really good point, thank you.

Yes it's been astonishing to me, and has really shaken my view of so many things and so many people. What's The Twist in reference to please?

INeedAPensieve · 12/12/2025 23:11

EdithStourton · 12/12/2025 22:48

@NotanotherWeek
I have never encountered such widespread and complete lunacy as has engulfed most of the world in the last few years
Anyone else remember feeling rather superior as an adolescent when reading The Crucible at school, and thinking that your own society would never go so beltingly insane, and wondering in a slightly worried way what it must have felt like to live through it, and whether you'd have been sucked in or been standing on the edges wondering if it was time to saddle the horses and get the hell out of Dodge Salem?

I feel a damn sight less superior now than I did, but at least I know that I've hung on to my marbles during this entirely bonkers episode in human history.

This is me, exactly! This is how I feel! I read the crucible with that "well thank goodness we are all far more sensible now" blah blah attitude and have been watching in horror as all this nonsense has spread and spread to the point that it has.

I was out the other night in Glasgow at The Ark (quite a blokey bar to be honest) and when I went to the loo my cubicle door had "protect the dolls" written on it. Ugh. So either it was a deluded women who somehow thinks this is a cause to get behind (clue: it's not) or a man used the loo whilst dressed in his best spinny skirt and wig. The latter option made me then look up mid pee in a kind of horror to try and see if there were hidden cameras there. Yes, my mind went there as I just hated the thought of a man in the women's loo. I was very nearly raped in a loo years ago, only due to another women seeing the waiter follow me in stopped it, as she banged on the cubicle door he'd locked me in.

I have trauma, I don't need to even be worrying about whether or not a man has been in the toilets. I just want to be allowed my dignity and privacy and to be safe.

Anyway, this ideology poisons everything. I went from enjoying my night out to wanting to just go home. I wish I'd had a pen with me and I'd have scored the horrible message out, but I just tried to not look at it and get out of there quickly.

DustyWindowsills · 12/12/2025 23:12

I'm belatedly reading this Times article from earlier this evening:
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-judge-urged-to-withdraw-ruling-riddled-with-errors-vzx2dcl90

It says the ruling uses US spellings such as "minimization" and "victimization", and quotes a "senior legal figure" saying that this strongly suggests use of AI.

I hate to be a killjoy, but those are not exclusively US spellings. The UK -ize spelling system is an accepted variant, and is used in the Oxford English Dictionary and many UK-published academic journals.

If "analyze" is spotted, then that's another matter entirely.

Right, I'll get back to my Friday night boozing now.

Sandie Peggie judge urged to withdraw ruling ‘riddled with errors’

Legal experts cast doubt on the trans case judgment involving the NHS Fife nurse which dismissed all the claims against Dr Beth Upton

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-judge-urged-to-withdraw-ruling-riddled-with-errors-vzx2dcl90

HildegardP · 12/12/2025 23:14

@MyrtleLion Right, that's it. Four months I've been waiting for an appeal decision from X. The initial lock-out was only for 12.5 hours & I only appealed to let them know their automation wasn't parsing an inoffensive idiom correctly (a TRA chanced their arm with a malicious report & got lucky).
I'm going to have to delete the damn post, I can't keep missing the comedy gold!

Edited to cut quote

Cailleach1 · 12/12/2025 23:18

BettyBooper · 12/12/2025 22:27

From the previous thread, the posters asserting racism:

It is not relevant.

Tell me how, if you honestly believe SP is racist, it justifies her employer obliging her to undress in front of a man?

Not just SP. Every woman in the women’s changing room can be subjected to a male gazing at them as they undress. And, in turn subjected to him undressing in their midst. At his whim.

SP is everywoman in this situation.

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:21

HildegardP · 12/12/2025 22:11

When a judge cocks up this badly s/he doesn't get takesy-backsies & a do-over, & you're right, it would be horrific for SP & her family to have to go through all the business of a hearing again, Ben Cooper giving Kemp's dog's breakfast the proper kicking it deserves can't come soon enough (I'd have to assume I'd entered an alternate dimension if leave to appeal were denied after all this.)

I cannot wait to read BCs submissions, honestly

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 23:22

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:21

I cannot wait to read BCs submissions, honestly

I am pre BC - ie haven’t followed one of his cases.

Where would I find previous submissions? Keen to read in as it were.

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 12/12/2025 23:23

DustyWindowsills · 12/12/2025 23:12

I'm belatedly reading this Times article from earlier this evening:
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-judge-urged-to-withdraw-ruling-riddled-with-errors-vzx2dcl90

It says the ruling uses US spellings such as "minimization" and "victimization", and quotes a "senior legal figure" saying that this strongly suggests use of AI.

I hate to be a killjoy, but those are not exclusively US spellings. The UK -ize spelling system is an accepted variant, and is used in the Oxford English Dictionary and many UK-published academic journals.

If "analyze" is spotted, then that's another matter entirely.

Right, I'll get back to my Friday night boozing now.

I don't know who puts them together and whether other people might have written bits up but the s spelling appears in other judgements of his

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Raquelos · 12/12/2025 23:27

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 23:22

I am pre BC - ie haven’t followed one of his cases.

Where would I find previous submissions? Keen to read in as it were.

He was the intervener for Sex Matters in the FWS vs ScotGov Supreme Court appeal. He got a special shout-out from the Judge for his contribution for bringing clarity I think.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 23:28

Raquelos · 12/12/2025 23:27

He was the intervener for Sex Matters in the FWS vs ScotGov Supreme Court appeal. He got a special shout-out from the Judge for his contribution for bringing clarity I think.

I’ve seen that one.

Any others? Someone shared a video link yesterday but I didn’t save it…

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:31

DustyWindowsills · 12/12/2025 23:12

I'm belatedly reading this Times article from earlier this evening:
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-judge-urged-to-withdraw-ruling-riddled-with-errors-vzx2dcl90

It says the ruling uses US spellings such as "minimization" and "victimization", and quotes a "senior legal figure" saying that this strongly suggests use of AI.

I hate to be a killjoy, but those are not exclusively US spellings. The UK -ize spelling system is an accepted variant, and is used in the Oxford English Dictionary and many UK-published academic journals.

If "analyze" is spotted, then that's another matter entirely.

Right, I'll get back to my Friday night boozing now.

We need to find some other judgements of his, and see if spellings are different.

Raquelos · 12/12/2025 23:32

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 23:28

I’ve seen that one.

Any others? Someone shared a video link yesterday but I didn’t save it…

Ahaa here you go

https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/legal-representation/ben-cooper-kc-counsel/

It was the Jo Phoenix vs Open University case I first noticed him, but he's been busy 🙂

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:33

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 12/12/2025 23:23

I don't know who puts them together and whether other people might have written bits up but the s spelling appears in other judgements of his

Ah, of course someone has already done it!

Excellent sleuthing!

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 12/12/2025 23:37

@BettyBooper i totally and utterly agree that whether Sandie is racist or not, depending on ones POV it is not at all relevant to her case.

But sending a “a joke “ about Pakistani people drowning is a racist thing to say.

there is no getting away from that.

And we have the trope that standing up for women of a none white culture is racist because they ought to stand up for themselves, and i am by virtue some kind of racist is laughable.

This is the last comment i am going to make on the subject, i said my piece and stand by it.

And i have consistently said Sandie is a shero.

DustyWindowsills · 12/12/2025 23:38

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:31

We need to find some other judgements of his, and see if spellings are different.

That could be very interesting.

MarieDeGournay · 12/12/2025 23:38

BettyBooper · 12/12/2025 22:27

From the previous thread, the posters asserting racism:

It is not relevant.

Tell me how, if you honestly believe SP is racist, it justifies her employer obliging her to undress in front of a man?

I had hoped that was left behind on the previous thread, but since you brought it up again: nobody said that SP being racist in any way justifies her employer obliging her to undress in front of a man. Everybody said that she was entitled to a single sex space, same as every woman is.
This is a phantom argument about something that was not said.

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 23:39

Re withdrawing the judgement, I am not aware of any mechanism by which this can happen. If it was, the case would have to be heard again from scratch with a new panel. This is also what would happen if the EAT finds that the ET was biased and sent it back. There is no way Kemp, Brown and Russell (the tribunal member, not the barrister) will have any involvement in a re-hearing.

Some of the tribunal's findings of fact are based on their incorrect interpretation of the law. If we accept the SC judgement, Upton should not have been in the female changing room and therefore SP was not proselytizing when telling him this, she was stating the law. Those should fall away.

However, unless the EAT feels that the tribunal's findings of fact are so out of line with the evidence as to be perverse, the findings in relation to the credibility of the various witnesses, etc., will stand unless the case is sent back to the ET.

By the way, to return to the Bryson point, it was agreed that SP had referred to the women's prison incident. The tribunal decided that was a reference to Bryson. Whilst that doesn't feel like an unreasonable finding, it occurs to me that a more neutral finding would be that it is not clear whether SP intended to refer to Bryson, but it was reasonable for Upton to think that she was.

This judgement is so poor that it clearly will not stand. Those rushing to use it to say that men are allowed in the women's toilets and changing rooms need to pause. Unless the SC think their judgement does not mean what it seems to say, at some point the lower courts will be told clearly that they must stop trying to subvert FWS and that they should stop any advocate attempting to relitigate that decision.

I don't know for sure whether SP will ultimately win on all counts, but I hope she does. She may not think of herself as a campaigner, but she is one now.

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 12/12/2025 23:41

@prh47bridge love that commentary with knobs on

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:44

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 23:22

I am pre BC - ie haven’t followed one of his cases.

Where would I find previous submissions? Keen to read in as it were.

I will try and find a link to the Supreme Court case so you can see him in action.

A shame the previous cases were not on YouTube.

He’s very understated, and will just casually drop bombs as if he’s discussing a pleasant afternoon picnic or something.

Sskka · 12/12/2025 23:46

I cannot believe this. I work in the law and we get horror stories and warnings every other week about how this might happen if you use AI – and if you do use AI, the onus is on you to check and double-check everything because it’s your head on the block if you don’t. It’s terrifying.

The idea that a judge might dive headfirst into the trap in a case which IS THE NUMBER ONE STORY IN THE BBC NEWS HEADLINES AND IS GOING TO BE SCRUTINISED FROM EVERY ANGLE IMAGINABLE … you wouldn’t think it could possibly happen.

Noodledog · 12/12/2025 23:47

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 23:39

Re withdrawing the judgement, I am not aware of any mechanism by which this can happen. If it was, the case would have to be heard again from scratch with a new panel. This is also what would happen if the EAT finds that the ET was biased and sent it back. There is no way Kemp, Brown and Russell (the tribunal member, not the barrister) will have any involvement in a re-hearing.

Some of the tribunal's findings of fact are based on their incorrect interpretation of the law. If we accept the SC judgement, Upton should not have been in the female changing room and therefore SP was not proselytizing when telling him this, she was stating the law. Those should fall away.

However, unless the EAT feels that the tribunal's findings of fact are so out of line with the evidence as to be perverse, the findings in relation to the credibility of the various witnesses, etc., will stand unless the case is sent back to the ET.

By the way, to return to the Bryson point, it was agreed that SP had referred to the women's prison incident. The tribunal decided that was a reference to Bryson. Whilst that doesn't feel like an unreasonable finding, it occurs to me that a more neutral finding would be that it is not clear whether SP intended to refer to Bryson, but it was reasonable for Upton to think that she was.

This judgement is so poor that it clearly will not stand. Those rushing to use it to say that men are allowed in the women's toilets and changing rooms need to pause. Unless the SC think their judgement does not mean what it seems to say, at some point the lower courts will be told clearly that they must stop trying to subvert FWS and that they should stop any advocate attempting to relitigate that decision.

I don't know for sure whether SP will ultimately win on all counts, but I hope she does. She may not think of herself as a campaigner, but she is one now.

I'm just asking you this, as I know you are a lawyer- are lawyers generally concerned about how little oversight judges seem to be subject to? My personal opinion is that it is incredibly destructive to peoples faith in the legal system if judges can seem to be able to do what they want, without facing any sanctions.

It's only recently that people have started to have access to trials and tribunals like this, and it feels like the more we are aware of how the system works, the more faith in it crumbles away. This cannot be a good thing for society.

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 23:50

I can’t find the link to him in the Supreme Court at the moment, but did find this:

https://c87b1b2c1034b7e2cbbd-d638d26a08b4b4992876224ccda01cb3.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/11_08Nov2022_CC_ELBA_Belief.mp4?mc_eid=97ce34f452

BC in a webinar linked by Sex Matters back in 2022

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 23:51

EdithStourton · 12/12/2025 22:48

@NotanotherWeek
I have never encountered such widespread and complete lunacy as has engulfed most of the world in the last few years
Anyone else remember feeling rather superior as an adolescent when reading The Crucible at school, and thinking that your own society would never go so beltingly insane, and wondering in a slightly worried way what it must have felt like to live through it, and whether you'd have been sucked in or been standing on the edges wondering if it was time to saddle the horses and get the hell out of Dodge Salem?

I feel a damn sight less superior now than I did, but at least I know that I've hung on to my marbles during this entirely bonkers episode in human history.

This.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread