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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
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62
selffellatingouroborosofhate · 14/12/2025 17:36

Oldandgreyer · 14/12/2025 12:29

Accuracy is different from competence, although they are very entwined.

Using falsehoods should instantly be acted upon by the Law Lords who should be deeply concerned.

There's no such thing as the Law Lords any more.

plantcomplex · 14/12/2025 17:41

I'm new to substack, where did it announce in advance that Foran would be live at 4pm? I only knew because I'd seen it mentioned on MN!

BezMills · 14/12/2025 17:46

ickky · 14/12/2025 17:32

Agree

On point 2, what employer is going to want to be the judge of a trans persons womanliness? Is there a set length of hair we can measure against to prove your sincerity etc.

Completely unreasonable to put them in that position and unworkable.

They way people look to others is subjective, there cannot be a measure.

Also not to mention who wants to be judged in that way.

Someone in the live chat also pointed out, what about captured employers who would even wave Pete through.

I really think that the whole judgement needs to be heard again. There is too much wrong.

I am completely against judging or categorising people on "passing" or "making a good effort" or anything like that. I think it's particularly unfair to middle aged males, no matter what they think of their own appearance but it's not fair on anyone really

As @ickky said, it puts employers and service providers in an untenable position, for which they have no capacity nor expertise.

ickky · 14/12/2025 17:47

@plantcomplex I got an email, but if you are on his substack, a notification popped up.

plantcomplex · 14/12/2025 17:47

ickky · 14/12/2025 17:47

@plantcomplex I got an email, but if you are on his substack, a notification popped up.

Ok thanks maybe my settings are wrong.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 17:49

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 14/12/2025 17:12

Does anyone know if Michael Foran's live video will be available on his substack archive? I'm a subscriber but got home too late to see the beginning and want to watch it all!

They pop up later - takes a few hours. Substack does it so it’s all a bit random.

SwirlyGates · 14/12/2025 17:51

😅

"He [Sandy Kemp], along with Angela Constance, is part of a confederacy of dunces"

Oof, he's not mincing his words!

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 17:51

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 14/12/2025 17:21

Have you asked AI where it is?! 😂

It couldn’t find it but it hallucinated a courgette. It said it was a viola a close cousin of the violin. 🎻 I’ll take that as fact and rely on it.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/12/2025 17:54

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 14/12/2025 17:12

Does anyone know if Michael Foran's live video will be available on his substack archive? I'm a subscriber but got home too late to see the beginning and want to watch it all!

Yes it will be made available as an upload.Edit it's ready already!
I also saw only part of the live. I probably saw the last 10 mins or so and eagerly await the upload!

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 17:54

TheAutumnCrow · 14/12/2025 17:22

Yes, the judge had a huffy fit and threatened to de-oath the current witness outwith her powers.

More unprofessional judge behaviour at ET.

God I forgot that.

And then the witness under oath nearly a week was asked shall we sit a bit later to finish up and release you from your oath. She said, I’m so tired and it’s so long under oath…. But I’d rather spend another night under oath. Very odd!

SwirlyGates · 14/12/2025 17:56

ickky · 14/12/2025 17:32

Agree

On point 2, what employer is going to want to be the judge of a trans persons womanliness? Is there a set length of hair we can measure against to prove your sincerity etc.

Completely unreasonable to put them in that position and unworkable.

They way people look to others is subjective, there cannot be a measure.

Also not to mention who wants to be judged in that way.

Someone in the live chat also pointed out, what about captured employers who would even wave Pete through.

I really think that the whole judgement needs to be heard again. There is too much wrong.

Gosh yes, who's going to be the one to say, "You don't look womanly enough, off to the men's with you!" And then maybe some HR person will say, "I disagree, I wouldn't know the difference between that guy woman and Miss World. The ladies' is fine!"

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 17:56

BezMills · 14/12/2025 17:46

I am completely against judging or categorising people on "passing" or "making a good effort" or anything like that. I think it's particularly unfair to middle aged males, no matter what they think of their own appearance but it's not fair on anyone really

As @ickky said, it puts employers and service providers in an untenable position, for which they have no capacity nor expertise.

The whole premise is transphobic. It’s a mental health issue - so what if you’re a massively obese bald man, you get to think you are a woman and get a GRC in time. No need to take hormones or get surgery. You can dress as a butch woman (no different to man). Just change your name to Petra to show willing…

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 14/12/2025 18:01

@Keeptoiletssafe I like so many others on here are continually impressed with the breadth and depth of your knowledge. I know you have corresponded with MPs, government ministers and a wide range of organisations. What do you think it will take to move things forward in any meaningful way? Who needs to get on board with the changes required? Are you working through a strategy? Are you working with anyone else on this? It's an enormous task and I can't help thinking you need to be heading up an army, rather than working alone (assuming you are) and/or you need help from some big hitters.

ILoveLaLaLand · 14/12/2025 18:16

lcakethereforeIam · 14/12/2025 12:03

Katy Gordon, in the Courier article upthread, talks of amicably sharing an open plan changing room with a man who claimed to be trans as though it was the same as Sandie Peggie's situation. Putting aside her assertion that they were just there to get changed, if it was no big deal why couldn't he do that in the men's? Or why didn't she come to that? She had chosen to put herself in that situation. She could have made provisions to avoid it. Arrived and gone home in her sports kit. Given up the sport, along with the other women who couldn't stomach changing with a male stranger. Those weren't options for Sandie. It was her job. She had to change for hygiene and patient safety. Also, as a hypothetical, Isla Bryson will be out of jail sooner or later. He may chose to take up that sport. Would she want to share a changing room with him or his ilk? Does she know how to reliably tell them apart? Can she share that with the rest of us?

Edited

Women like this are a big part of the problem - without their pandering to this men's rights movement for men with a fetish, things would not have spiraled out of control as they have done.
These women are complete hypocrites and liars, virtue-signalling for all they're worth to burnish their progressive credentials and to hell with any woman who suffers as a result.

Maupassant would make mince meat of them.

Let Katy and other vacuous virtue-signalers use the men's toilets and changing rooms to make them more welcoming for the poor lickle trans women who "just want to pee". Any man who uses a women only space has outed himself as a predator. Any woman who supports predators in women only spaces are sadistic enablers.

BettyBooper · 14/12/2025 18:21

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 14:18

Dark / fair / grey???

Anything that narrows down any search parameters is helpful.

Thank you - it’s a lead!

I have searched and searched because I am so concerned about the influence activists are having on judgements.

The best I could come up with was that an L brown sat with Judge Kemp on a case in 2019.

It's not acceptable that people can have this much influence over law and remain pretty much anonymous.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 18:43

BettyBooper · 14/12/2025 18:21

I have searched and searched because I am so concerned about the influence activists are having on judgements.

The best I could come up with was that an L brown sat with Judge Kemp on a case in 2019.

It's not acceptable that people can have this much influence over law and remain pretty much anonymous.

In NI they are public appointments and verifiable. Not sure why they’re so hidden in Scotland.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 14/12/2025 18:44

@Keeptoiletssafe Thank you so much for the comprehensive reply. I'm going to take my time to read it properly, but just wanted to say thanks.

About 15 years ago an impeccable source told me of a school where some of the girls were being paid by some of the boys to give them 'sexual favours' in the toilets at break times. The source's source was the Headteacher herself. I remember thinking what the hell was the Head doing allowing that to happen, but now I wonder if the school had mixed sex toilets and the Head was struggling to control the situation.

NotanotherWeek · 14/12/2025 19:45

Having read the Scotsman and listened to Foran, I don’t see how the appeal court can make any sensible order on the specifics of this case. How do you pull any factual threads together sufficiently to assess what harms have been done and how they should be compensated? None of the findings of fact or credibility are remotely reliable.Every new thing we hear about the decision exposes the ghastliness of the mess. I hope Sandie and her team have a view about how to handle a retrial, but would they change their views as to settlement criteria if, say, NHS Scotland ensured all its hospitals complied with FWS and, very hypothetically, if Parliament bites the bullet and approves the EHRC guidance?

nauticant · 14/12/2025 19:50

Next case to be launched:

Sandie Peggie vs Judicial Office for Scotland.

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/12/2025 19:50

Having written that I've just realised that most posters here won't see I was joking!

OP posts:
TriesNotToBeCynical · 14/12/2025 19:53

nauticant · 14/12/2025 19:50

Having written that I've just realised that most posters here won't see I was joking!

Judicial review is not entirely impossible; though perhaps not a tactical priority.

Largesso · 14/12/2025 20:09

Interesting view. I think, however, they can just rule on errors of law and how those errors have scaffolded into incorrect decisions.

I think the most logical approach is to treat all the guff as fruit of the poisonous tree, as it were. Ie that the guff is created from the initial
legal errors which then grow and grow.

I don’t think they need to unpack the the whole idiocy.

IANAL so others will have informed views but from a lay perspective it would seem straightforward enough to rule that BOTH respondents 1 & 2 are guilty of harassment given the errors in law, and that the harassment then led to indirect and direct discrimination.

That’s if an intelligent and non-captured EAT judge is appointed.

Kemp clearly has got above himself and thought he could rewrite laws and it is not impossible that another of those sits on the EAT panel. They also might close ranks to protect Kemp and make him look less of an arse and that might skew their thinking.

But I think a stronger motivator will be that they won’t want to face the same ridicule.

They will keep it to errors of law, which seems quite easy on the face of it, and will dismiss with a light touch the findings formed from those errors.

I would hope they would also find opportunity to rip NHSFife a new one with regard to their behaviour as Kemp has not even given them a reprimand.

Behind closed doors, I imagine, is where Kemp will actually be carpeted and we probably won’t get, sadly, to witness that.

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