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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

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MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 14:18

Mmmnotsure · 14/12/2025 14:04

@MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL
My memory is corroborated. Both women, middle-aged, nothing distinctive-looking about either of them.

Dark / fair / grey???

Anything that narrows down any search parameters is helpful.

Thank you - it’s a lead!

Peregrina · 14/12/2025 14:23

My memory is corroborated. Both women, middle-aged, nothing distinctive-looking about either of them.

Hmm middle aged must mean either they are coming up to the menopause, going through it or have recently gone through it. And somehow don't have the nous to tell Sandy Kemp what menopause can be like.

Alpacajigsaw · 14/12/2025 14:27

TheAutumnCrow · 14/12/2025 13:29

Is it this case? Who was Borthwick giving evidence on behalf of, do we know?

I’m starting to think the cut of Kemp’s gib is: find against female complainants overall, irrespective of the evidence; but give them a wee sop to shut them up; and tell off the employer just a wee bit to remind everyone who’s in charge round here.

And no woman has ever had the money or backing or support to challenge such a Big Sond ruling before.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19868215.deeann-fitzpatrick-case-lies-litigation-image-shocked-world/

DeeAnn Fitzpatrick case: Lies, litigation and an image that shocked the world

What you also have to remember is that a lot (not all obv) cases where the Claimant has a good case settle before ET so seeing cases where the Claimants lose isn’t a reliable indicator of judicial bias

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 14/12/2025 14:41

Another question for the legal bods on procedure. If BC submits that the whole judgment is so flawed that judgement should be set aside, is the only option to redo the hearing? Given there are transcripts from the stenographer available for at least the second part of the hearing, could other judges go through them and come up with their own decision?

I suspect is a no-go as the stenographer wasn’t present for the first part of the hearing, even if procedurally that would be allowed. It just seems that the judgement is such a mess that an appeal going through points where the judge got it wrong would be equally messy - although if anyone could bring it together in a coherent way it would be BC. I also get that the appetite for a do-over would be low on all sides, but may be cleaner in the long run.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 14:48

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 14/12/2025 14:41

Another question for the legal bods on procedure. If BC submits that the whole judgment is so flawed that judgement should be set aside, is the only option to redo the hearing? Given there are transcripts from the stenographer available for at least the second part of the hearing, could other judges go through them and come up with their own decision?

I suspect is a no-go as the stenographer wasn’t present for the first part of the hearing, even if procedurally that would be allowed. It just seems that the judgement is such a mess that an appeal going through points where the judge got it wrong would be equally messy - although if anyone could bring it together in a coherent way it would be BC. I also get that the appetite for a do-over would be low on all sides, but may be cleaner in the long run.

No go relying on half a transcript. You have to see and hear the witnesses.

So if judgment so poor it can’t be relied on in part for appeal to stand it is a full do over

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 14:52

Worth a read - Scotsman opinion piece on Kemps judgment

The Judicial Office has been shown troubling evidence that the tribunal, under Kemp, got the law wrong and that some of the material used to support its decision is fake.

It should not be for Peggie – or another claimant – to have to go through an appeals process simply to correct glaring factual inaccuracies in a judgment. Rather, Kemp’s ruling should be withdrawn entirely, while the matter is formally investigated.

Tribunals make life-altering decisions every day and we are entitled to believe that all of those involved in the process know exactly what they are doing.

There can be no confidence that Kemp is equipped for his role until there’s a full and convincing explanation for how the judgment in the Peggie case came to be such a mess.

borntobequiet · 14/12/2025 14:53

ErrolTheDragon · 14/12/2025 14:03

Does legal training still not include mandatory statistics?
I’d have thought after some of the more egregious cases (eg Sally Clarke) they’d have done something about it.

What’s worse is that the erroneous statistics were presented by a medical doctor, the paediatrician Sir Roy Meadow, who should have had a better understanding of them. I can sort of understand a legal person not challenging a medic on this sort of thing.

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 14/12/2025 14:58

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 14:48

No go relying on half a transcript. You have to see and hear the witnesses.

So if judgment so poor it can’t be relied on in part for appeal to stand it is a full do over

Thanks, it makes sense that the judge has to hear from the witnesses themselves to form their own opinion of credibility etc.

Will there be any behind the scenes discussions going on in terms of the ET office indicating to the interested parties their preferred option once they’ve dealt with Kemp the best route forward? Or is there a wall up and SP’s legal team have to put forward their appeal submission and the ET office responds only then?

i suspect the latter, but would be very interested to know if it’s the kind of thing where you get a wink and a nod over a discussion in the pub at the end of the day. Or maybe I’ve just watched too many tv legal dramas! Grin

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/12/2025 15:00

BettyBooper · 14/12/2025 11:00

I remain frustrated at the lack of information about the other panel members.

Given the capture of the Trade Unions and the high probability that at least one had strong links to a TU, it seems to me that this should be public information.

This is a very high profile case and not knowing the potential bias of two thirds of the panel does not feel like open justice.

I have very similar frustrations. Given that the two lay members are not legally qualified, I do think they deserve a much greater degree of privacy and protection from a public shitstorm in the absence of any confirmed wrong doing.

But I hope that the organisations and parties involved in the legal process will consider properly any connections that are known to them through the screening process and/or through what was known to them because of their privileged involvement in the case management. Like you say there could be TU connections.

There also may be conflicts of interest eg due to close personal or business relationships with politicians/NHS executives and so on. It may not be our business to know any detail at all right now as members of the public, but there should be ways that more formal nvestigations could take place if warranted.

prh47bridge · 14/12/2025 15:02

TheAutumnCrow · 14/12/2025 13:29

Is it this case? Who was Borthwick giving evidence on behalf of, do we know?

I’m starting to think the cut of Kemp’s gib is: find against female complainants overall, irrespective of the evidence; but give them a wee sop to shut them up; and tell off the employer just a wee bit to remind everyone who’s in charge round here.

And no woman has ever had the money or backing or support to challenge such a Big Sond ruling before.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19868215.deeann-fitzpatrick-case-lies-litigation-image-shocked-world/

DeeAnn Fitzpatrick case: Lies, litigation and an image that shocked the world

Yes, Borwick (NOT Borthwick) was involved in this case, although I am not clear whether he gave evidence directly to the tribunal. He had produced a report for Marine Scotland during disciplinary proceedings against Fitzpatrick. His evidence established that the photo of Fitzpatrick taped to a chair was taken on 10th August 2009 and not 16 December 2010, as claimed by Fitzpatrick. His conclusion was supported by other evidence. This was one of the factors that led the tribunal to find that Fitzpatrick's evidence was unreliable.

In this case they trubnal accepted Borwick's evidence, but they did point out, correctly, that Borwick overstated the certainty of his conclusions, given the availability of software that allows metadata of images to be manipulated.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 15:07

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 14/12/2025 14:41

Another question for the legal bods on procedure. If BC submits that the whole judgment is so flawed that judgement should be set aside, is the only option to redo the hearing? Given there are transcripts from the stenographer available for at least the second part of the hearing, could other judges go through them and come up with their own decision?

I suspect is a no-go as the stenographer wasn’t present for the first part of the hearing, even if procedurally that would be allowed. It just seems that the judgement is such a mess that an appeal going through points where the judge got it wrong would be equally messy - although if anyone could bring it together in a coherent way it would be BC. I also get that the appetite for a do-over would be low on all sides, but may be cleaner in the long run.

My recollection is that NC told the tribunal she had ordered a transcript of the first part of the hearing on behalf of her client. I have a vague memory of JR being somewhat put out by this as her clients would not be entitled to a copy of it without the claimant's agreement. Any agreement would no doubt require a contribution towards the costs.

So I think Sandie's team will be able to go through the first part of the hearing as well and take a view. Whether the procedure for appeal permits a a party to make an application for a fresh hearing I don't know. I presume it would have to be in the alternative at the least.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 15:09

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/12/2025 15:00

I have very similar frustrations. Given that the two lay members are not legally qualified, I do think they deserve a much greater degree of privacy and protection from a public shitstorm in the absence of any confirmed wrong doing.

But I hope that the organisations and parties involved in the legal process will consider properly any connections that are known to them through the screening process and/or through what was known to them because of their privileged involvement in the case management. Like you say there could be TU connections.

There also may be conflicts of interest eg due to close personal or business relationships with politicians/NHS executives and so on. It may not be our business to know any detail at all right now as members of the public, but there should be ways that more formal nvestigations could take place if warranted.

My concern which has been solidifying with each case is that the lay members are unscrutinised but have an outsized impact on the tenor of the result. They don’t quote the law themselves but when they’ve all decided ‘she’s guilty drown the witch’ it falls to the Judge to go get the evidence to get the witch firmly dunked.

In the Sara Morrison v BFF it was eventually found that the panel member was calling herself a Professor despite having left uni at 16. She also was in a video calling herself an employment judge.

She’d liked hastagged LGBTQ pages saying ‘fuck the DUP’ at Pride. She was a leader in women’s groups who are trans captured. A recusal application was made re bias. And the Judge said nothing to see here and she slunk off the panel with fibromyalgia.

Is that panel member still sitting? What is anyone doing about that?

In each panel I have looked at or Judge there is good evidence for a strong inference of bias.

So much so in Kelly and Peggie they have to contort the law to fit their narrative. It would be laughable if it weren’t so grave.

We are a nation founded on the Rule of Law and if justice is denied by the very people supposed to be held to the highest standards as servants of the law what hope have we.

I do despair at the clear bias, and dare I say it corruption in the law in these cases.

prh47bridge · 14/12/2025 15:11

borntobequiet · 14/12/2025 14:53

What’s worse is that the erroneous statistics were presented by a medical doctor, the paediatrician Sir Roy Meadow, who should have had a better understanding of them. I can sort of understand a legal person not challenging a medic on this sort of thing.

Edited

The problem was that Meadow did not believe in the existence of SIDS (cot deaths as they are commonly known) and believed that all such deaths were either accidents or murder. If you start from that position, you arrive at his figure, although it is still not proof of murder contrary to his belief. His position was fundamentally flawed, ignoring evidence that SIDS is genuine and runs in families. However, this is getting a bit off topic for this thread!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/12/2025 15:12

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 15:09

My concern which has been solidifying with each case is that the lay members are unscrutinised but have an outsized impact on the tenor of the result. They don’t quote the law themselves but when they’ve all decided ‘she’s guilty drown the witch’ it falls to the Judge to go get the evidence to get the witch firmly dunked.

In the Sara Morrison v BFF it was eventually found that the panel member was calling herself a Professor despite having left uni at 16. She also was in a video calling herself an employment judge.

She’d liked hastagged LGBTQ pages saying ‘fuck the DUP’ at Pride. She was a leader in women’s groups who are trans captured. A recusal application was made re bias. And the Judge said nothing to see here and she slunk off the panel with fibromyalgia.

Is that panel member still sitting? What is anyone doing about that?

In each panel I have looked at or Judge there is good evidence for a strong inference of bias.

So much so in Kelly and Peggie they have to contort the law to fit their narrative. It would be laughable if it weren’t so grave.

We are a nation founded on the Rule of Law and if justice is denied by the very people supposed to be held to the highest standards as servants of the law what hope have we.

I do despair at the clear bias, and dare I say it corruption in the law in these cases.

And in Kristie Higgs not one but two panel members were recused as LGBTQ activists, leading the case to go ahead with just the judge.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 14/12/2025 15:12

Cailleach1 · 14/12/2025 08:18

First thing that would pop into my mind is a concern that he might have gone in to place a camera somewhere. Without anyone to see him. We all now know that some men have fetishes about women’s bodily functions.

Well, such a thing didn't occur to me, 30 years ago. It might do nowadays!

ickky · 14/12/2025 15:12

Michael Foran is going Live at 4pm

I subscribed and have 5 gift subscriptions to give out.

Please pm me with your email address in this format

name at gmail/hotmail/outlook dot com/co.uk

nicepotoftea · 14/12/2025 15:18

GallantKumquat · 14/12/2025 13:11

I agree with this. What are the protections against a conflict of interest, or even malicious intent? The best explanation for this entire judgement is that a TRA threw a huge tantrum and Kemp attempted to split the difference, granting the bare minimum judgement to Peggie, in an attempt to mollify a media firestorm, and throwing the rest to Upton through any available legal reasoning (or lack of reasoning) he could find. Others have come up with other plausible scenarios but this still seems to me the most likely.

Edited

You would also have to assume that they fed him all the incorrect references and data, and that he is so unsuited to his role as a judge that he didn't check the sources.

weegielass · 14/12/2025 15:26

the whole system needs an overhaul. There should be stricter procedures to check for potential bias in whatever case is before them. Not to mention tighter checks and rules on AI.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 14/12/2025 15:32

Just randomly wanted to add to the love and support for @Keeptoiletssafe - your diligence and knowledge are unsurpassed. We can all learn from you!

MistyGreenAndBlue · 14/12/2025 15:40

seXX · 14/12/2025 08:58

The Courier have an opinion piece reminding everyone of the true victim of the tribunal... Have your bingo card ready!
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/5391844/trans-women-upton-real-victims-nhs-tribunal/
(If you can't read it, put the link in an incognito tab)

Even in incognito I can't see this. Anyone got an archive link please?

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 14/12/2025 15:42

In the Sara Morrison v BFF it was eventually found that the panel member was calling herself a Professor despite having left uni at 16. She also was in a video calling herself an employment judge.

Sorry don't mean to derail but I've not got up to speed with this one at all. Is it worth me spending Christmas skimming the threads?!

weegielass · 14/12/2025 15:44

JKR has commented on the case

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/2000202703591321711

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/12/2025 15:45

@MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL I do agree with you. I'm just hoping very much that the crack team for SP is already on the case looking at the whole range of possible connections.😁

I'm guessing that there are probably well-intentioned reasons for providing minimal info about non legally qualified panel members. But the legal team will hopefull have had sight of more info than us and my fingers are tightly crossed that if anything is out there they will uncover it.

KTheGrey · 14/12/2025 15:52

Holy crap that’s excoriating - and makes the link between the government’s failure and the judiciary’s. Fighting talk, although it ends with a kind of resigned shrug.

Spot on about undermining the public’s confidence in the legal system though.

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