Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
62
Talkinpeace · 13/12/2025 17:09

Stephen Whittle might possibly pass as a man
except she is tiny
and NEVER shuts up about being trans

she does need to use disabled loos though as the testosterone has damaged her bones

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 13/12/2025 17:10

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 17:01

That might have sounded ruder than I intended. Leonardo and Fife etc let it happen because everyone got brainwashed by cult thinking. They had no policy and didn’t consent initially in both cases.

I object to any purported judge who says - we can’t decide on this statute because employers would have to manage their estate and control where employees go. Employers are the best to control employees because they give them money every month!

Edited
Show quote history

In fairness I don't think that was the jusfication. It's common ground that employers do have control over the situation (MS even relies on that in her judgment), and I agree that policing would not be hard, if based on reports from other users.

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 17:16

Well it's taken two drives totalling three hours but I've finally caught up on this thread. The others will have to do without my attention.

Majorconcern · 13/12/2025 17:37

How the appeal might go (C Wynter KC)

EAT: - "Mr Cooper. We need not trouble you on grounds 1 to 17 but would be grateful if you would help us with ground 18"

BC: - "I have taken instructions and if, as it appears, you are with us on grounds 1 to 17, we are content to let ground 18 lie" "Thank you"

The Court rises.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 17:39

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 17:04

If an employer provided only male and female toilets/changing rooms and, for the purposes of this argument, provided accessible facilities for those with disabilities or access needs within such single sex facilities, then I think they're is a significant issue for some women who identify as men.

Such a woman may have had a double mastectomy, taken testosterone, have male pattern baldness, facial hair and "pass" as a man e.g. Stephen Whittle or Buck Angel for two examples, one who says he is a man, the other who acknowledges he's female.

The FWS judgment was clear that such women must not use the men's facilities because they are women and men are entitled to single sex facilities. But it is arguable (again as per FWS) that their presence in the women's facilities could be considered intimidating. Such women would need a third facility to comply with the law. If one wasn't provided, they would have a case of discrimination against their employer.

And if they did use the women's, that might out them as trans. So much as I know some people want accessible facilities to be in single sex facilities with cubicles for safety reasons, having an accessible toilet with a sink inside is the safest for their situation.

Many assume these are just for people with disabilities but many disabilities are not visible - someone with a stoma for example, or autism where they have a sensory issue around noise or smell.

Some people use them because they want privacy for a poo or menstrual issue.

So I feel very strongly that a third accessible facility is required so that trans men don't out themselves and comply with the law.

Show quote history

Have you met many trans identified women? Our limbic brain recognises them as women and there is no issue.

More akin to a hirsute woman than anything resembling a man.

And yes I agree with third spaces.

ILoveLaLaLand · 13/12/2025 17:48

MyAmpleSheep · 13/12/2025 01:46

If we accept the SC judgement, Upton should not have been in the female changing room

I'm obviously stupid, because I just don't see this as a given. I really really want to, but I can't.

It's certainly true for single sex services, because it's only by sex that you have permission to segregate services, and to admit men to a women's toilet vitiates adherence to the gateway condition that segregation by sex (which must mean biological sex) is necessary as a PMOALA.

But - we are not in a public service. We are in a workplace, and there's nothing in the section of the EA2010 that applies to workplaces that says discriminating by sex in a workplace environment is acceptable as a PMOALA. There are no gateway conditions to meet, no equivalent of the Schedule 3 exceptions to the "no discrimination on any PC" rule. You cannot discriminate by sex in a workplace - period - at least not in what facilities you offer to your employees.

When we're talking about a service, it's held that even if there's no obvious disadvantage (there are both men's and women's toilets, so nobody is at a detriment, and discrimination requires detriment) it's still discrimination because someone could argue they are at a detriment, but that's ok because of the schedule 3 exceptions. So far so good.

In a workplace, it clearly isn't inferrable that separate sex bathrooms are a detriment to either sex otherwise separate sex bathrooms in the workplace would be de facto unlawful - remember there are no permissive exceptions for sex discrimination for PMOALA in a workplace - there is nothing similar to section 29, Schedule 3.

So - if there isn't a gateway condition to providing separate sex toilets in a workplace - there's no possible argument that separating any other way than by sex vitiates the gateway condition. The reasoning why the only legal separation is by biological sex just doesn't work like it does for services.

That means that while separating by biological sex in the provision of toilets, changing facilities etc. is certainly legal, it may not be the only legal separation.

There are good arguments working outside the EA2010, like the workplace regulations, a requirement for consistency across bathroom provision, and probably some others. But I still can't see how anything that the SC said in FWS is relevant.

Somebody - please, knock down this reasoning.

Edited
Show quote history

So we need a change in employment law to keep male colleagues out of the women's changing rooms/toilets?

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 17:59

Such a woman may have had a double mastectomy, taken testosterone, have male pattern baldness, facial hair and "pass" as a man e.g. Stephen Whittle or Buck Angel for two examples, one who says he is a man, the other who acknowledges he's female.

How well do these two people pass as men? I suspect that if they look masculine a man isn't likely to challenge them. I doubt whether they would want to go to the gents to lech at the men. Unlike men leching in the women's. And TiMs hardly ever pass despite what Judge Kemp seemed to think.

But if one TiW think's she's male and the other acknowledges that she's still female, it shows how nonsensical gender ID is.

ILoveLaLaLand · 13/12/2025 18:12

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 17:59

Such a woman may have had a double mastectomy, taken testosterone, have male pattern baldness, facial hair and "pass" as a man e.g. Stephen Whittle or Buck Angel for two examples, one who says he is a man, the other who acknowledges he's female.

How well do these two people pass as men? I suspect that if they look masculine a man isn't likely to challenge them. I doubt whether they would want to go to the gents to lech at the men. Unlike men leching in the women's. And TiMs hardly ever pass despite what Judge Kemp seemed to think.

But if one TiW think's she's male and the other acknowledges that she's still female, it shows how nonsensical gender ID is.

Unless they are unusually tall and broad women, their height, head size, nose, forehead, ears, jawline, lack of an adam's apple, tiny hands and feet and the obvious thinness of their facial skin compared to men gives the game away to anyone standing in front of them. The average woman is 5 ft 4 inches tall while the average man is about five inches taller...

Stephen Whittle may have gotten away with passing as a tiny man when no-one knew that grown women were swallowing cross-sex hormones to grow facial hair and lose the hair on their head (ffs) but now that everyone knows there is a cohort of women who do this, it's unlikely men are fooled at all.
It's more likely they just ignore it in the men's toilets or use a cubicle rather than the urinal in front of a balding bearded woman.

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 18:15

but now that everyone knows there is a cohort of women who do this, it's unlikely men are fooled at all.
It's more likely they just ignore it in the men's toilets or use a cubicle rather than the urinal in front of a hairy-faced woman.

Well, I certainly think that men are entitled to privacy also, but I don't think that a masculine woman is anything like as much of a threat to men, as men are to women.

ILoveLaLaLand · 13/12/2025 18:19

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 18:15

but now that everyone knows there is a cohort of women who do this, it's unlikely men are fooled at all.
It's more likely they just ignore it in the men's toilets or use a cubicle rather than the urinal in front of a hairy-faced woman.

Well, I certainly think that men are entitled to privacy also, but I don't think that a masculine woman is anything like as much of a threat to men, as men are to women.

I never said that men were in any danger from a woman using the men's but I agree men are entitled to dignity and privacy too.

It's clear that men are a threat to women because they are much taller and stronger.

weegielass · 13/12/2025 18:26

I canny keep up with this thread and another group I'm a member of outside MN where many of our favourite lawyers and other GC people converse.

(I am a very small fish in comparison btw and am nowhere near as knowledgeable as they are, but its so interesting to read their thoughts on this)

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 18:27

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 17:39

Have you met many trans identified women? Our limbic brain recognises them as women and there is no issue.

More akin to a hirsute woman than anything resembling a man.

And yes I agree with third spaces.

Show quote history

Yes and for a long time I thought he was a man. I use male pronouns because that's how I have known him fir 15 years, but he is a woman - I know it's confusing.

Short, squeaky voice, weird - all of that. I even stayed at his house with him and his wife before I knew, and crucially, I first met him about six years or so before this issue became as mainstream as it is now.

Their bathroom was odd. I could see masculine products, but it didn't feel as though a man used it. I can't explain exactly, but I couldn't work out who had used which towel. I think it shows that women have different perceptions about biological men.

Anyway, once I knew he was trans, it all made sense and I now can't unsee it.

Maybe this was because it was rare and I wasn't as enmeshed as I am now. Maybe if I met him now for the first time I would spot it immediately.

nicepotoftea · 13/12/2025 18:29

ILoveLaLaLand · 13/12/2025 18:12

Unless they are unusually tall and broad women, their height, head size, nose, forehead, ears, jawline, lack of an adam's apple, tiny hands and feet and the obvious thinness of their facial skin compared to men gives the game away to anyone standing in front of them. The average woman is 5 ft 4 inches tall while the average man is about five inches taller...

Stephen Whittle may have gotten away with passing as a tiny man when no-one knew that grown women were swallowing cross-sex hormones to grow facial hair and lose the hair on their head (ffs) but now that everyone knows there is a cohort of women who do this, it's unlikely men are fooled at all.
It's more likely they just ignore it in the men's toilets or use a cubicle rather than the urinal in front of a balding bearded woman.

Edited
Show quote history

You can't stop humans recognising a pattern.

But using Kemp's rationale, none of this is necessary.

Any woman with short hair and not wearing lipstick should be fine to use the men's toilets. You might have to practice saying things like 'awright mate' in a deep voice, but I don't think people talk much in toilets, so that might not be necessary.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 18:29

weegielass · 13/12/2025 18:26

I canny keep up with this thread and another group I'm a member of outside MN where many of our favourite lawyers and other GC people converse.

(I am a very small fish in comparison btw and am nowhere near as knowledgeable as they are, but its so interesting to read their thoughts on this)

How do we get into your secret legal crew? I need deets. 🍿😂

weegielass · 13/12/2025 18:32

invite only and I'm not the admin sadly and also not permitted to share.

But when certain names pop up I totally squee....

(edited, I was going to name names but I won't so I'm not outed)

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 13/12/2025 18:38

So, Robin Ince has resigned from The Infinite Monkey Cage. Apparently his trans ally position was no longer flavour of the month. Reported on R4 and Twix.

Totallygripped · 13/12/2025 18:39

Re the recent posts, I understand from quick search that Stephen Whittle has MS. So that might dictate need for disabled loo rather than T messed with her bones. I need to add limbic system to my list of things to look into. To add to the precambrian rabbits. I have work to do so it is very unfair of all of you to give me all this serious stuff to think about...I am still firming up on non-Newtonian liquids.
I did mention in a previous post though a fleeting encounter. It was more, who is this? I am not sure how I would have felt in an enclosed space. Esp looking at reddit and the I don't have bottom dysphoria, get a lot of pleasure from my penis, but I am a woman and challenge me to say not cohort. Also are toilets distinguishable from changing rooms?

teawamutu · 13/12/2025 18:40

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 13/12/2025 18:38

So, Robin Ince has resigned from The Infinite Monkey Cage. Apparently his trans ally position was no longer flavour of the month. Reported on R4 and Twix.

Possibly not so much his pro-trans stance, as the nasty, spiteful anti-woman way he expressed it?

If so, trash took itself out etc etc etc.

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 18:40

I never said that men were in any danger from a woman using the men's but I agree men are entitled to dignity and privacy too.

No, I didn't mean to imply that you did say men were in danger from women. It is something that judges need to take on board - that women are threatened by men in a way that women aren't - as well as the specific conditions which women face when needing the loo.

MyrtleLion · 13/12/2025 18:44

Also are toilets distinguishable from changing rooms?

Yes, because they're not hygienic to change in, but mostly because you may heavy to take off some of all of your clothes in a changing room. As a result women are much more vulnerable to attack, but also to embarrassment at being seen undressed.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 13/12/2025 18:44

teawamutu · 13/12/2025 18:40

Possibly not so much his pro-trans stance, as the nasty, spiteful anti-woman way he expressed it?

If so, trash took itself out etc etc etc.

Show quote history

Reports vary!

Boiledbeetle · 13/12/2025 19:02

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 13/12/2025 17:02

It can be very warm outside the bluestocking if you want it to be it can be almost anything you want it to be.

Show quote history

It's truly magical at the Bluestocking!

You just place your weather order, along with your drink order, with the gerbils.

They'll sort it as soon as they've finished their tea.

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Totallygripped · 13/12/2025 19:11

Yes I understand that. My point was more that I have never worked in an environment where the loos were within a communal locker/changing room space. As seems to be the case here.

weegielass · 13/12/2025 19:27

pmsl

https://x.com/MrMalky/status/1999821603501199382

Talkinpeace · 13/12/2025 19:27

I started work in the mid 80's

Staff toilets and washrooms and workplace showers
(essential in the companies I worked for)
were always STRICTLY single sex.

Customer toilets and washrooms were absolutely single sex.

The insane idea that men were actually welcome in female spaces
DID NOT EXIST
11 years ago.

A very few transvestites broke the rules
but even gay nightclubs were strictly single sex

The revisionism in the last 10 years has been utterly shocking.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.