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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread derailment

461 replies

Temporaryusernamefortoday · 11/12/2025 22:51

Wondering if I am the only one that’s noticed more and more thread derailments. I’m not talking about TRA taking a TWAW stance but an individual being deliberately obtuse or missing the point of an individuals posts to create an argument about a tangential element. It just seems rather insidious and designed to prevent proper conversation.

This is not a TAT but a thread about a phenomenon.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 13:47

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:30

It simply isn't bollocks. In an academic feminist circle, you wouldn't be shut down just for being GC, you'd be shut down because you think being GC is the only approach to Feminism so it would be unproductive to have you in discussions with other feminists. You'd be too caught up on "but she isnt really a feminist" when all the other people are trying to discuss feminism and the economy.

Oh come on, you would get shut down for just being GC, are you familiar with Phoenix or Favaro?

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 13:48

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:44

No I think youve read that so wrong, I can't even interpret where the wrong started.

I... literally quoted you? Saying that " TW aren't men but they also aren't women"? What is there to misunderstand about this??

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:50

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 13:47

Oh come on, you would get shut down for just being GC, are you familiar with Phoenix or Favaro?

What I can say is that it doesn't occur in my field. There is definitely still a place for GC views in academic feminist debates in my field. Not everyone is happy about that, no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 13:51

Phoenix: criminology
Favaro: sociology

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 13:52

I think the quote was “in an academic circle”, wasn’t it?

Brainworm · 13/12/2025 13:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 13:47

Oh come on, you would get shut down for just being GC, are you familiar with Phoenix or Favaro?

The idea that GC feminists are the ones who insist that GC is the only form of feminism is laughable. Feminists who lean heavily not intersectionality often insist that if your feminism doesn’t include all ‘women’, it’s not feminism.

Its fair to say that feminist of all stripes can be found to make the argument that their take is the only one that warrants being called feminism.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:53

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 13:48

I... literally quoted you? Saying that " TW aren't men but they also aren't women"? What is there to misunderstand about this??

Yes I said TW are TW. I have to accept that TW aren't men because they say so. I can't accept they are women due to my own views on womanhood. I will accept they are TW and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

The same goes for TM. I have to accept that they aren't women because they say so. I can't accept they are women because of my own views of manhood. I will accept that they are TM and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:54

Brainworm · 13/12/2025 13:52

The idea that GC feminists are the ones who insist that GC is the only form of feminism is laughable. Feminists who lean heavily not intersectionality often insist that if your feminism doesn’t include all ‘women’, it’s not feminism.

Its fair to say that feminist of all stripes can be found to make the argument that their take is the only one that warrants being called feminism.

Yes I said this earlier.

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 13:58

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:53

Yes I said TW are TW. I have to accept that TW aren't men because they say so. I can't accept they are women due to my own views on womanhood. I will accept they are TW and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

The same goes for TM. I have to accept that they aren't women because they say so. I can't accept they are women because of my own views of manhood. I will accept that they are TM and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

I will accept that they are TM and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

We don't, though. All the barriers we face (edit: and needs we have) are those of women who present as men and mess around with their female bodies. Women, always and only, even if so many don't want to accept it.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:59

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 13:58

I will accept that they are TM and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

We don't, though. All the barriers we face (edit: and needs we have) are those of women who present as men and mess around with their female bodies. Women, always and only, even if so many don't want to accept it.

Edited

So are you a TM?

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 14:02

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:59

So are you a TM?

Yes, I'm a transman, ie a woman who presents as a man, is taking masculinising hormones, and made cosmetic changes to her body, none of which makes me less of a woman or more of a man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:12

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 13:53

Yes I said TW are TW. I have to accept that TW aren't men because they say so. I can't accept they are women due to my own views on womanhood. I will accept they are TW and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

The same goes for TM. I have to accept that they aren't women because they say so. I can't accept they are women because of my own views of manhood. I will accept that they are TM and have distinct needs and barriers that neither men nor women face.

You don’t in any way have to accept a man isn’t a man because he says so, any more than you have to accept anything he says is true.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:13

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 14:02

Yes, I'm a transman, ie a woman who presents as a man, is taking masculinising hormones, and made cosmetic changes to her body, none of which makes me less of a woman or more of a man.

So does it make you a TM? I'm not sure what you want from this. Do you want me to see TM as women? That would be difficult for two reasons: 1) our differing views on what makes a woman and 2) most TM do not want us to see them as women. On 2, I'd need to encounter more TM for it to shift my opinion. Just like I didn't shift my opinion that TW aren't men on encountering the existence of one TW. It took varied experiences of understanding that trans people exist for me to shift my opinion.

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 14:18

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:13

So does it make you a TM? I'm not sure what you want from this. Do you want me to see TM as women? That would be difficult for two reasons: 1) our differing views on what makes a woman and 2) most TM do not want us to see them as women. On 2, I'd need to encounter more TM for it to shift my opinion. Just like I didn't shift my opinion that TW aren't men on encountering the existence of one TW. It took varied experiences of understanding that trans people exist for me to shift my opinion.

I'm not sure what you want from this.

What I want from this is to understand what a TM is in your eyes. You've said what it isn't (neither a man, nor a woman), but I'm trying to understand what it is. Is it something completely outside of the man/woman binary? Is it something between man and woman?

most TM do not want us to see them as women

Interesting. You accept to believe part of their claims (that they are not women), but you don't accept the rest (that they are men). May I ask why?

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:12

You don’t in any way have to accept a man isn’t a man because he says so, any more than you have to accept anything he says is true.

I think that there is enough evidence to conclude that trans people exist. Whether that changes much about your interaction with trans people depends on the context. For me, in my professional life, it would have some bearing on my approach. Personal life, not so much.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:28

Seethlaw · 13/12/2025 14:18

I'm not sure what you want from this.

What I want from this is to understand what a TM is in your eyes. You've said what it isn't (neither a man, nor a woman), but I'm trying to understand what it is. Is it something completely outside of the man/woman binary? Is it something between man and woman?

most TM do not want us to see them as women

Interesting. You accept to believe part of their claims (that they are not women), but you don't accept the rest (that they are men). May I ask why?

A trans man (to me) is a trans man. A trans man is a person who was raised as a girl in accordance with their anatomy, but somewhere along the line, transitioned to a male gender identity.

I explained that my own beliefs on what makes a man or a woman disallow me from seeing a TM as a man. In short, I don't think men are born with vaginas. However, I accept that enough people feel that they can have a vagina and still not be a woman so I accept that they are TM. As I said earlier, I haven't encountered many people who profess to be both TM and women simultaneously.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:31

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:21

I think that there is enough evidence to conclude that trans people exist. Whether that changes much about your interaction with trans people depends on the context. For me, in my professional life, it would have some bearing on my approach. Personal life, not so much.

Yes, men who claim to be women and women who claim to be men exist. No one is denying this.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:31

Yes, men who claim to be women and women who claim to be men exist. No one is denying this.

Yes I think they exist enough for me to conclude that they are separate groups to women and men. Especially as they typically vehemently express this to be the case. I just don't see them as their chosen gender either. I see them as trans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:41

I think the label “trans” is largely meaningless.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:42

How exactly are men who claim to be women separate in any meaningful way from other men apart from the lack of that claim?

HousePlantEmergency · 13/12/2025 14:49

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:34

Yes I think they exist enough for me to conclude that they are separate groups to women and men. Especially as they typically vehemently express this to be the case. I just don't see them as their chosen gender either. I see them as trans.

Woah. I'd not recommend posting words to that effect on any prominent trans boards 😬

Your arse will be handed to you in milliseconds.

SionnachRuadh · 13/12/2025 14:52

If we're going to be philosophical, I'd say that to me the core of feminism is (a) centering the needs of women and girls and (b) asserting that women are equal to men.

Beyond that, there's an almost infinite number of ways to be feminist. It doesn't require you to sign up to a laundry list of policy positions on net zero or Ukraine or the marginal tax rate or whatever.

I say almost infinite, because I can't see that the belief that men can be women is compatible with feminism, and the feminists I've seen up close who take that position invariably devolve into centering the most special oppressed women of all i.e. the male ones.

However.

We do get trollish derailing, but IME lots of the scraps here are not derailing as such, they derive from us bringing different perspectives, and sometimes there's a bad tempered interaction where it might have been profitable to dig into why we have different perspectives.

The obvious one for me is that, while FWR has traditionally skewed left, many of us feel politically homeless. But there are some, a minority I think, for whom it's very very important that feminism has to be left wing, and you can't be GC unless you're also explicitly left wing. This often comes with an assumption that if you're not explicitly left wing you must be right wing; a side order of sneering about "GB News" or "Tommy Robinson supporters"; and an assumption that being left wing means you're morally superior.

The last is a particular berserk button of mine, precisely because of my up close experience of dodgy left wing men, and the left wing women who enable them. I can speak at tedious length about this if needed.

Rationally it would be better to ask "why do you think that?", but if I'm tired or ill or irritable and someone is yapping at me in an annoying way, I may not do so.

But that's not really derailing. That's just human people arguing.

We can spot derailing when we see it, which doesn't make it less annoying.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:54

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 14:42

How exactly are men who claim to be women separate in any meaningful way from other men apart from the lack of that claim?

See I come at this thinking more about TM than TW as I am more likely to encounter a TM than a TW for a few reasons.

Either way, my answer would be because
i) they may pass as men
ii) they do not identify as a woman

I'd say the same goes for TW but I have less reason to think about them.

Funny side story: the first trans person I knew was someone who worked in my local community and I thought they were a TW called "Paul". This was when I was a child and they were a youth worker in my area. I literally found out last year that they are actually a TM originally called "Pauline". There are things that made them physically androgynous but I was so shocked when I discovered this in passing.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/12/2025 15:08

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 14:34

Yes I think they exist enough for me to conclude that they are separate groups to women and men. Especially as they typically vehemently express this to be the case. I just don't see them as their chosen gender either. I see them as trans.

I think what you are maybe missing / minimising is that it's not just about who they are not, but who they claim to be.

A trans woman who wants to say he is so different from other men he should not be considered one is not the same thing as a trans woman saying he is so like female people for [reasons never clear] that he should be considered one.

The former can be accomodated by saying "ok, we'll decide male bodied people come in two types". The latter requires undefining the significance of the female body to those who have it and replacing it with whatever the trans woman believes is the defining quality of womanhood. That impacts all female people.

It's not just about trans people.

Squishedpassenger · 13/12/2025 15:14

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/12/2025 15:08

I think what you are maybe missing / minimising is that it's not just about who they are not, but who they claim to be.

A trans woman who wants to say he is so different from other men he should not be considered one is not the same thing as a trans woman saying he is so like female people for [reasons never clear] that he should be considered one.

The former can be accomodated by saying "ok, we'll decide male bodied people come in two types". The latter requires undefining the significance of the female body to those who have it and replacing it with whatever the trans woman believes is the defining quality of womanhood. That impacts all female people.

It's not just about trans people.

I tried to make sense of your post. It sounds like youre saying that accepting that a TW is not a man is less harmful than accepting that a TW is a woman.

If I have got that correct, who is saying that a TW is a woman?

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